The 1960's GB General Discussion

[kerick]

Did anybody still operate PT boats still in the 60s? Just curious.👀

[jcf]

Yes, mostly as houseboats.


The wooden construction meant that the majority of PT Boats and MTBs were soon struck off, keeping the boats in service was far too expensive a notion
and with the end of the war there was no pressing
need for the type.

That said you could claim that it's a new fiberglass or aluminum hull boat based on the original design.

Note that newer types of "torpedo boat" were in use in
the '50s and '60s but they weren't WWII PT- Boats or MTBs.

[Weaver]

Ten second-hand Higgins-built PT boats were delivered to Argentina in the late 1940s and served until the late 1970s. Two of them are still in use as civilian tour boats apparently! This shows that using surplus WWII boats was _technically_ practical, it was just that most potential customers either didn't have a role for them. Also, new boats were relatively cheap anyway, so it was better to use the subsidised/free second-hand market for bigger ships that would be harder to build new.

The RN completely eliminated coastal forces in the late 1950s since the only enemy they were looking at was the Soviet Union and there was no meaningful "coastal" theatre in which to fight them. Most European boats built after WWII followed the German pattern hulls for a softer ride at the expense of speed. Vosper persisted with the "hard chine" style (faster but harsher) seen in the WWII boats until the late 1960s but then even they gave up and followed the trend. The Vosper hard-chine craft like the Brave, Susa and Soloven classes had wooden hulls too, as did several classes of Soviet torpedo boats.

Torpedoes only continued in use in those theatres like the Baltic, the Adriatic and the Norwegian coast where a small craft could get close to a large one without being seen on radar. The Soviets pioneered the use of big anti-ship missiles on small boats (SSN-2 Styx) as part of their efforts to swamp USN carrier battle groups with many missiles from multiple sources. The US and NATO didn't initially follow them down this route since there weren't that many big Soviet ships to shoot at and the use of overwhelming air power was seen as preferable. There were experiments, and even some sales, of systems using over-grown anti-tank missiles (overwhelmingly SS.12: easily availably in 1/72nd as AS.12) in the West, mainly for export customers, but it took the introduction of Exocet in the very late 1960s to spark the 1970s boom in missile boats/Fast Attack Craft (FACs) that were sold to many small navies as "equalisers". That lasted until the early 1990s when GW1 showed up the horrible vulnerability of these craft to air attack, and export customers started demanding corvettes/small frigates with proper air defence.

It would be plausible to take a model of a WWII boat, update it's armament and systems, and claim it as a new-build in the 1950s/early 1960s using a WWII hull pattern since why-reinvent-the-wheel? The customer might be a great power with a sudden need for coastal/riverine craft (think USA in Vietnam) or an export customer. Probably wouldn't have torpedoes though: if it did they'd likely be Swedish or German. It might have turreted (French) or fixed (British) SS.12 launchers.

Gun-wise, post-war 40mm Bofors guns looked much the same as their WWII predecessors. New ones had 70-calibre barrels but there were still plenty of 60-cal ones around for decades. Likewise WWII-pattern Oerlikon guns. Multiple .50cal mounts were common on post-war river patrol craft (like US Swift Boats), and I'd be surprised if somebody didn't put the 4-gun Maxxon turret on one. Riverine craft also made use of mortars and rocket launchers: some US Swift boats had an oddball mounting with an 81mm mortar and a .50 cal MG mounted together one over the other (the Revell Swifft Boat has this mounting).

That Revell Swift Boat gives you a good idea of the sort of changes a post-war boat might show: larger cabin, modern radar, and modern guns.

[zenrat]

Yes, mostly as houseboats...

I can remember seeing houseboats with MTB hulls on the Thames in the 80's.  Always seemed a sad way for them to end up.

[PR19_Kit]

There's a Fairmile boat available for hire on the Broads to this day, but I presume it's had the original engines replaced by something more economical and less powerful. 

I've seen it quite a few times in the last few years, but never on the rivers, just moored up.

Hm, further checking says there are no survivors, so maybe it's not a Fairmile, but it's still pretty darn BIG! 

[Nick]

Naval gazing...

Hydrofoils were briefly the in thing for the late 1960s.

Hong Kong harbour patrol chasing down smugglers.

Scottish Navy coastal patrol boats protecting the fishing fleet during the Cod Wars. River monitors protecting the main base at Rosyth.

Australian Marines on the Todd River. Water capability optional, only required once in 50 years!

The Firefighter Museum in Mantova in Italy has a WW2 amphibious VW Schwimmwagen. The Alvis Stalwart is an amphibious truck. The Alvis Salamander was a road based fire truck. So why not an amphibious Fire and Rescue Stalwart / Salamander?

[PR19_Kit]

The Royal Navy had HMS Speedy in service from 1980-82, and she was a Boeing Jetfoil hydrofoil too, latter than the 60s though.

She's now a ferry on the Hong Kong-Macau run.

[NARSES2]

Stranger were nuclear powered airplanes.

Never got my brain around that concept 

[scooter]

It would be plausible to take a model of a WWII boat, update it's armament and systems, and claim it as a new-build in the 1950s/early 1960s using a WWII hull pattern since why-reinvent-the-wheel? The customer might be a great power with a sudden need for coastal/riverine craft (think USA in Vietnam) or an export customer. Probably wouldn't have torpedoes though: if it did they'd likely be Swedish or German. It might have turreted (French) or fixed (British) SS.12 launchers.

Don't forget the various LS/LCs being used as tenders for your new riverine navy.

[scooter]

A further posit for the build.  A nation with a significant amount of rivers or coastal inlets reaches out to revise the PT/MTB/MGB concept due to either rises in insurgent or pirate activity.

Foe example, an 80' Elco boat, built of Kevlar (1965)-reinforced glass fibre with trip pump jets (or refitted WWII build).  One twin .50, one twin Mk-19 AGL (1968), twin Oerlikion 20mm cannon, etc.

[jcf]

Yes, mostly as houseboats...

I can remember seeing houseboats with MTB hulls on the Thames in the 80's.  Always seemed a sad way for them to end up.

The surviving restored exampled only survived because they were turned into houseboats. 

[Weaver]

A further posit for the build.  A nation with a significant amount of rivers or coastal inlets reaches out to revise the PT/MTB/MGB concept due to either rises in insurgent or pirate activity.

Foe example, an 80' Elco boat, built of Kevlar (1965)-reinforced glass fibre with trip pump jets (or refitted WWII build).  One twin .50, one twin Mk-19 AGL (1968), twin Oerlikion 20mm cannon, etc.

Or two M-163 Vulcan cannon turrets with the radar removed fore and aft, and two M-134 miniguns on swivel mounts, one on each beam...    

[jcf]

The Higgins boats in Argentina, they started with ten in 1948 and were down to four by 1960.

78' Higgins PT-Boats Argentina

[Weaver]

The Higgins boats in Argentina, they started with ten in 1948 and were down to four by 1960.

78' Higgins PT-Boats Argentina

Cheers John. Seems like most of the attrition was down to cannibalization for spares, so if they'd bought a decent spares holding (or more boats) in the first place they could have continued with a viable fleet into the 1960s. The photos back up what I said about post-war moderniztion: bigger, semi-enclosed bridges, modern radar, L70 Bofors guns and .50 cals.

[frank2056]

Stranger were nuclear powered airplanes.

I met an engineer who worked on the Nuclear powered airplane project. It used a specially modified B-36 with an on-board reactor.

Although the reactor was never used to power the aircraft, it was a working device. This engineer mentioned that the crew cabin was heavily shielded and one constant problem was that the wiring insulation on cables near the reactor kept failing, due to the radiation.

Another insane project was Project Pluto.