F-14 Tomcat

[Shasper]

Re the F401, At the time the F-14 was already in the red cost wise & the USN didnt want the cost to climb any higher, not to mention the F401 was already on shaky ground 'cuz it failed several of its initial tests, so the USN decided to cut it's losses. As with anything that cost $mucho & military, there are multiple reasons for why things go the way they do.

Now then, I highly doubt the USN would have gone for a single seat F-14. Statistics from 'Nam proved that having a GIB (Buy In Back) in aerial combat is an added MiG warning system, plus the AWG-9 was too much for the computer systems to handle at the time. A single seater would have been cheaper (hence the F-18A/C) & have a tad more range, but the requirements meant that a family model was needed.

Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

Re the F401, At the time the F-14 was already in the red cost wise & the USN didnt want the cost to climb any higher, not to mention the F401 was already on shaky ground 'cuz it failed several of its initial tests, so the USN decided to cut it's losses. As with anything that cost $mucho & military, there are multiple reasons for why things go the way they do.

Which tests did it initially fail?  Did the F-100 seriously delay the F-15's entry into service as well? 

Would anything have seriously have happened if the USN decided to climb a little higher into the red to get the F-100/F-401 online in order to upgrade it's old F-14A's, and fit the new F-14B's?

Now then, I highly doubt the USN would have gone for a single seat F-14. Statistics from 'Nam proved that having a GIB (Buy In Back) in aerial combat is an added MiG warning system, plus the AWG-9 was too much for the computer systems to handle at the time. A single seater would have been cheaper (hence the F-18A/C) & have a tad more range, but the requirements meant that a family model was needed.

Exactly.  If an F-14 model existed that was significantly F-15 like do you think the F-15 would have been "forced" to accept it?  Or do you think as I speculated they would have just gone along with the F-15 anyway?


While off topic,

I read that the reason the F-12B was cancelled was because Robert McNamara, trying to salvage his reputation over the F-111, tried to pitch the idea to the USAF as an interceptor.  The USAF refused and selected the F-12B, and authorized the first 93 in 1965.  McNamara continued to insist, and eventually even impounded the money.  To force the issue he then cancelled the F-12B and ordered all the tooling destroyed which ended the A-12, YF-12/F-12, SR-71, and M-21 program in one fell swoop. 

Would his "reputation", as in would it have got him forced out as SecDef earlier if he didn't try and pitch the F-111 as an interceptor as well to replace the F-106, or do you think he would have stayed in regardless to 1968 when the Vietnam war reached it's peak? 


KJ_Lesnick

[Shasper]

Re the F401, So far what I've been able to google cannot answer your question KJ, except to say that if it were not for the Shah choosing the F-14 the whole Tomcat program would have been on VERY thin ice. There was a F-15ish looking Tomcat model (303F, G or H IIRC) thats was suggested to the navy, but they went VG w/t 303E. I'm not sure how the teething problems with what became the F100 had on the F-15 program, but it did affect the F-16 enough that the Alt. Fighter Engine program was put into motion for both the F-14 & -16. This spawned the GE F110 & the newer F100-PW229. (By this time the USN was very firmly in the GE camp, and the commonality between the compressors of the F404 & the F110 in regards to layout was a bonus)

As for the engine tests, I'll have to consult my master library when I go home next wkend.


Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

Do you think history would have turned out significantly different if the F-14's capabilities more closely mirrored the F-15 in dogfighting, and the Shah got those instead of the F-14 as we know it today?  I remember F-15 pilots saying that even though they thought dimly of the F-14 for the most part, they said they always took it seriously because Khomeni had them in his inventory...

KJ_Lesnick

[Shasper]

Re: F-14
Without making this into a "F-14 v F-15" debate, the F-14 was a better dogfighter than its predecessor (the F-4 Phantom) & could hold it's own against the Eagle in many respects (AIMVAL/ACEVAL showed how closely the 2 were matched). As far as the Shah goes, he wanted a big stick to tell the Soviets to stick it where the sun dont shine, and thats exactly what he got with the F-14/AIM-54 combo. I dont think much would have changed if the Grumman 303F (hybrid F-14/F-15) was chosen over the VG 303E, except the landing speed would be a bit higher than the F-14 we know & love today. Like I said above, the Shah got the F-14 for the AIM-54 (the F-15 *in theory* could carry it, but the radar system would have to be revamped from the ground up) to ward off the Foxbat overflights, and for the 2-person crew (something they really liked seeing as the F-4 was their main combat type at the time), although the demo flight held at Andrews didnt hurt the Shah's decision either.

Hope that's a satisfactory explanation of things.

Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

To Shasper: In regards to the F-14's costs ending up in the red.  Was there any other part of the F-14 design that was causing extensive monetary problems? 

Regarding the F-100, the original design was lighter in weight allegedly which was for the US Navy requirement.  I don't know why it was such a big deal to be honest.  The USAF managed to do fine with a heavier advanced-geometry compressor which managed to provide significant performance improvements. 

(Yes I am aware that USN aircraft have to be substantially stronger.  However, the F-4's which were initially built as Navy fighters, and had the extra strength built into the overall airframe from the beginning was not all obscenely heavy.  I think actually it weighed just a little more than the F-15.) 

[RLBH]

My understanding is that the F-401 and F-100 aren't the same engine (the F-401 actually flew on the original F-14B, of which there was precisely one), but rather that they were parallel developments based on essentially the same core. I expect that, when compressor problems became apparent, the USN cut and run, or was ordered to do so, to keep costs under control, whilst the USAF stuck with it.

Had funding been available to put the F-14B into series production (starting with the 67th airframe), performance would have been pretty much on a par with the later F-14A+, which would certainly be handy.

[coops213]

How feasible would it have been to put swiveling pylons under the wings, like the F-111 or tornado? I'm guessing it would probably have required a complete wing re-design. Still, if would look pretty cool to have an MER under each wing loaded with MK-82s, or even GBU-38s.

Chris

[KJ_Lesnick]

Why didn't the USN just evolve the F-401 into the F-100 like the USAF? 

I was told that the F-401 was allegedly too heavy for the USN's requirement, and the USAF decided to go with a new advanced geometry compressor, perhaps the fan or the first spool?  Either way, why was the weight a serious problem?  From what I remember the F-4 (USN) and F-15 (USAF) weighed about the same, and were around the same size even though the F-4 could operate off a carrier because of the extra strength built into it? 

Was the revised compressor of the F100 much more expensive than the F401?

[RLBH]

Others would be better placed to comment than I, but I understand it was politics, pure and simple.

[GTX]

Why didn't the USN just evolve the F-401 into the F-100 like the USAF?

Surely some of these questions would be better directed towards the US Gov't or Pratt & Whitney instead of this board???  Remember that it is easy to say what should have happened 20 - 30 years after the fact!

Regards,

Greg

[KJ_Lesnick]

Hey, it's not like I said you guys had to have an answer about the F-401 / F-100 thing.  However, I should add, that if I e-mailed the engine and airframe manufacturers and/or the US Government, etc... I doubt I would get any better an answer than I would from you guys. 

Kendra Lesnick

[KJ_Lesnick]

I got a question.... 

Were there any people at General-Dynamics who had the ability to make a difference have doubts as to the F-111B's ability to hack it in the USN?

[rallymodeller]

The main problem (as has been cited many places) that the USN had with the TFX/F-111B was that it was too damned heavy. Even before the first one had been completed by Grumman (the F-111B's main subcontractor -- they built all the B models) it was realized that it would be near impossible to get the weight growth under control. This was the genesis of the Grumman G-303 project that spawned the Tomcat. The 303 was designed to be a lighter, interceptor-optimized TFX from a near clean sheet of paper. There are some familial similarities between the F-111 and the F-14: the pivot box structure and the wings are quite similar, although to save weight the F-14 ditched the TFX's swiveling pylons. Had things been reversed it probably would have been easier to build an F-111-style strike fighter from the G-303. However some of the technology on the F-14 -- the composite horizontal stabilizers, for example -- just were not available when the TFX was being laid out. 

[KJ_Lesnick]

Grumman built all the F-111B models?