F-14 Tomcat

[Shasper]

Yep, all of the handful that were built came from Bethpaige.

Re: Red - Inflation pretty much spells it out (as with all advanced military programs), the use of Titanium & Boron in the wing pivot box, coupled with the TF30 "band-aid" program drove the cost up per unit, to the point where there was talk about using a cheaper non-AWG9 equipped F-14 & even a F-15N was considered. In the end the Shah's order for 80 F-14As (followed by another 80 a/c buy shortly) helped save the Tomcat program altogether.

Re: F401 - The main reason the engine got canned was because of interservice b****ing between the AF & the Navy, plus the USN already spent gobs of $$$ to "band-aid" the TF30s to keep the fleet going as it was. P&W wouldnt cut any slack, and the initial engine tests showed that there were improvements that needed to be made, which would drive the engine cost up (and the unit cost for the F-14). Like I stated before, the Tomcat was already on thin ice financially & adding more $$$ for a new engine (when the F-14s were getting "new" TF30s already) just wasnt a viable option.

Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

Shasper,

Inflation pretty much spells it out (as with all advanced military programs), the use of Titanium & Boron in the wing pivot box, coupled with the TF30 "band-aid" program drove the cost up per unit, to the point where there was talk about using a cheaper non-AWG9 equipped F-14 & even a F-15N was considered. In the end the Shah's order for 80 F-14As (followed by another 80 a/c buy shortly) helped save the Tomcat program altogether.

Why did they even bother to band-aid the TF-30?  If they just let the bad engine go, chances are someone would have stepped in and ordered a replacement right?  Would the F-15N have had an AWG-9, or at least carried AIM-54's?  When did the Shah's order come in? 

F401 - The main reason the engine got canned was because of interservice b****ing between the AF & the Navy, plus the USN already spent gobs of $$$ to "band-aid" the TF30s to keep the fleet going as it was. P&W wouldnt cut any slack, and the initial engine tests showed that there were improvements that needed to be made, which would drive the engine cost up (and the unit cost for the F-14). Like I stated before, the Tomcat was already on thin ice financially & adding more $$$ for a new engine (when the F-14s were getting "new" TF30s already) just wasnt a viable option.

As I said earlier, why did the USN bother band-aiding the TF-30?  It was a bad engine-- eventually someone would have eventually had a cow over it and demanded a replacement if they didn't band-aid it at all right? (One thing I've learned from Bush and Cheney -- and I'm not big fans of theirs, is if you sometimes let a deficiency occur, which has negative results -- it then causes various people to demand a a fix; then you offer the solution and come out looking great.  Action, Reaction, Solution)

I'm wondering why the original design failed it's design goals.  Supposedly the problems were caused by a USN specification which ultimately caused it.  The USAF revised the compressor and kept going.  What was the original problem? 


r16

and maybe I should add some of capabilities of the F-14 had to be cut down , I gather the impression that the flight control system was modified to give best possible climb as the original to give best lift drag would make the aircraft far better in flight but also called for even higher strength , and naturally more expensive wings .Though it might not be what I say . The F-14 was the original superfighter and it nearly appeared that it had more enemies in the West than it had in the East .

Where do you draw these conclusions from?  About the flight control-system and airframe being set up for best possible climb over optimum L/D ratio?


K.J. Lesnick

[GTX]

As I said earlier, why did the USN bother band-aiding the TF-30?  It was a bad engine-- eventually someone would have eventually had a cow over it and demanded a replacement if they didn't band-aid it at all right?

As I said earlier:  Remember that it is easy to say what should have happened 20 - 30 years after the fact! At the time, these sort of things aren't always necessarily that clear.

Also, the TF-30 wasn't that bad an engine - it served the F-111 well and arguably the F-14 as well.  Whilst it may not have been the ideal solution, it did power the fleet for many years and helped build the F-14 reputation.

Regards,

Greg

[KJ_Lesnick]

Was that before they thickened the glove/pancake? 

KJ

[Shasper]

KJ, may I ask what info is the basis for your questions here? 'Cuz you have come up with some things that I've never heard of, and I'm pretty knowledgeable on the 'Cat.

Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

Shasper,

Mostly a book about the F-15 and comparisons I've read about between the F-14 and F-15, and data over the years I've obtained on the F-14 (which isn't a massive amount)


KJ

[GTX]

Interestingly, I only read yesterday that after the Islamic Revolution in Iran, the new gov't seriously looked at selling their F-14s.  Possible customers included:

• Saudi Arabia - would look cool in same camo scheme as Tornados (IDS or ADV);
• Canada (via the USA); and
• UK (via the USA).

Ah, the real world - always providing plenty of whiff potential.

Regards,

Greg

[Shasper]

Ok sounds good, as little as i know I've never heard of Grumman playing around with the wing gloves past the mock-up/R&D phase.

GTX, I highly doubt that the new Islamic gov would have done business with the US, but I did read that the F-14 was pitched to the UK by Grumman after the revolution (Having 80 or so "extra" airframes hangin' out is not good for business), at a significantly reduced price (sorry, no figures).


Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

Why was there such b*tching between the USAF and USN over the F-401 / F-100?
Would the F-100 have been too heavy for the USN design? 

[Shasper]

Close R16, real close. While the F100/401 did have more umph than the TF30, the price of the F401 & the teething issues associated with it led to it getting canned, coincidentally the F101DFE/110 was in the initial stage of development.

I think if the F410 didnt have its issues then the A models & any new built "B"s would have been PW, with maybe GE coming in later on the "C" & retro fitted to the Bs.


SHas

[KJ_Lesnick]

f-100 in itself would have been light for the F-14 . We should remember that USN was pushing for an invasion of the Barents Sea in case of WW3 . They would have to fight hordes of Russian fighters , not merely packs of Badgers firing ASMs. With all that VG mechanism the Tomcat would be lacking in thrust/weight . In movies when you throttle down , every bad guy finds itself under your guns ; in a real life 50 plane furball there is always more .

meaning USN needed a bigger F-100 , the money was tight and GE was coming up with the 110 . Navy had to wait .

Why did the F-14 need a VG wing?  The F-15 did okay with a fixed wing... nice large area did okay.  While a USN plane would have to be sturdier, the F-4 managed to be within 40,000 lbs at combat-load even with the sturdier fuselage and arrestor hook...

I just think they needed to be a bit more creative...


Shasper,

Why did the F-401 use a lighter-weight compressor design (that was also less sophisticated than the F-100) -- that's why it failed it's early teething.  The F-100 design with it's heavier but more advanced compressor managed to do just fine and wasn't all that heavy.  Plus the F-100 was capable of higher-speed (when did the design evolve to be faster to meet the F-15 requirement?  Right away?  Or as the F-15 continued to develop?)


KJ Lesnick

[Shasper]

R16 hit it on the head, the VG wing let the 'Cat to make lower approach speed to the boat, something thats almost needed, However there was a weight issue w/landing with a full load of 54s. As for the F401 issue, I honestly have no idea!


Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

The thing I'm wondering about is... if the F-4 was only about 40,000 pounds at combat weight... why would the F-14 have so much trouble with weight if it stuck with a fixed wing?  Both were large twin-engined carrier capable aircraft?

The F-15 managed to make do with a nice low landing speed with a nice large-area wing... just as good as an F-14 if not better...
   

KJ_Lensick
(BTW:  Why did the F-15 weigh around 44,000 pounds even though the F-4 which was a navy plane and could operate off carriers weighed only 40,000?)

[Shasper]

Well the F-15 was a heck of alot bigger. . . 


Shas

[KJ_Lesnick]

Shasper,

As for the F401 issue, I honestly have no idea!

Same here... and it's so strange that they couldn't have later switched from F-401 to F-100 -- I mean the USAF was already developing it. 

And if they didn't band-aid the TF-30 and let it fly with all it's problems -- sure, maybe a couple of accidents happen -- someone would have virtually demanded a replacement and been outraged how the USN did nothing, then the proper solution could be offered - The F-401/F-100, and I'm pretty sure the funding would be offered at that point. 

Action, Reaction, Solution -- It's a totally sociopathic/machiavellian (It's kind of both, and in my opinion, highly repugnant and dishonorable) solution I'd say but damn effective. (I've seen it work -- through the actions of Dick Cheney, George W. Bush and Karl Rove -- the've been able to do amazing things to this country, mostly amazingly bad, but well beyond any of our wildest dreams or nightmares)

Well the F-15 was a heck of alot bigger. . .

I suppose you might be right.  The F-15, though, wasn't built to withstand the rigors of repeated, carrier-landings which one would suspect, would add significant amounts of weight to USN airplanes.  McDonnell built both aircraft designs and you'd figure would know various ways to produce a very strong and reasonably light airplane (as the F-4 managed to come in okay and was a USN aircraft that even the USAF operated and liked it very much) and you'd figure they would have made the F-15 a bit lighter than the older F-4.

BTW:  Do you know how much the F-4E, or F-4F actually weighs
-Empty,
-At Combat-weight
-Fully-loaded

And what their fuel capacities are (as their sizes -- 63-feet -- are closer to the F-15's)?


Kendra Lesnick