M1 Abrams family of vehicles

[noxioux]

Okay, so this is an armor idea, but you'll just have to deal with it.  I am wondering why not build an M1 Abrams with one, or possibly two, GAU-8As instead of the 120mm smoothbore.  You could possibly eliminate the loader from the tank crew, making more room for the second gun or more ammo.  This would be a sort of fire-suppression vehicle for use in light/medium built-up areas.  Like small scattered towns in the desert. . .

I'm thinking you could modify the current fire control computer so it would automatically deliver 100 round bursts on preprogrammed targets, much like the computer does for the 120mm gun.  Another interesting idea would be a datalink to ground-based antiaircraft stations for coordinated antiaircraft defenses.  A platoon of these tanks, spread out over a wide area would make a pretty evil AAA asset.

I am looking for a 1/35 GAU-8A, but another interesting possibility would be a 1/48 Tamiya M-1, which might make finding the gun easier.  Another possibility would be to fudge it and use the 1/32 gun from the Trumpeter A-10 kit.  Anyone know of a resin 1/48 GAU???

[Madoc]

Noxioux,

Neat idea but I'm not so sure about the type of gun you want to mount on it.  The GAU-8A's eat ammo something fierce.  If you're looking to have a weapon system that has some endurance to it then you'd do better with a lower rate of fire canon system.  It all depends though.

If this M-1 mod is designed as a dedicated anti-air platform then more endurance would be needed.  If it's to be strictly anti-missile then having those 30mm firehoses might be just the thing - but make sure to have their reload vehicles close at hand though!

Madoc

[cthulhu77]

How about big wings on the side of the turret to store ammo...kind of like the old chieftain had...?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

FYI the M1A1 is available in 1/48th scale from Academy.  The only problem is that it is motorized and has some toy-like features associated with the running gear.  There is also a T72, and a Challenger available in the same scale with the same motorized features.  This could be a good start for your project.  It would be much more practical from a logistics standpoint to use just one gun since it already has seven barrels which should be sufficient for reducing prefabricated concrete structures to rubble in no time at all.  The single gun also allows for a larger supply of ammunition which would require fewer reloading evolutions for the weapon.  

My own personal idea for an anti-aircraft variant of the M1 was to take the SGT York M247 turret with the two 40mm bofors cannons and switch over to one single 75mm or 76mm auto-cannon similar in concept to the Oto-Melara design for the using the 76mm gun as an anti-aircraft weapon on a license built Leopard.  

There is an anti-aircraft version of the M1 in concept at the moment, I don't think it has reached the hardware stage just yet.  It looks like an M1 with a larger M1 shaped turret that carries a pair of 35mm cannons.  I saw an image of it on line but cannot remember the link/location.  

Another version I had thought of was to copy the Ram Tiger design for an armored vehicle that could ram into and break down buildings using an armored superstructure.  

Good luck with the project in which ever scale you tackle this project in.

[noxioux]

Thanks for the input!  I hope we get to see Steve's critter when it's done.

I'm actually not thinking in terms of a dedicated air defense platform, that would be a very secondary role.  It would primarily be used to provide direct fire support for infantry.  It wouldn't have any radar itself, but could be linked to a remote radar, say if you had the tanks deployed in a defensive position around an airbase or something like that.  Otherwise, it would be used in a similar role as a plain-jane M1.

As for ammo consumption, I'm thinking it might be wise to have the fire control computer limit bursts to 100 rounds, overridable by the tank commander.  Or make the burst rate fully programmable by the TC.  Maybe include some preset bursts and firing patterns.  For example, if the TC wants to throw a 100 round burst in a short zig-zag on a target at 1000 meters, you could do a preset for that (since a humans reactions would be too slow for that kind of control of the GAU).

I think the M1 should have plenty of room for ammo.  Especially if you eliminate the loader's position.  I would be more concerned about replacing the helical drum with a different feed system and all the other serious turret modifications you'd need to adapt the GAU-8.

Also, the M1 sucks fuel like a mother, so yes, this would be a fuel/ammo sucking pig.  Your ammo trucks would simply need to keep up with the fuel trucks.  That is, unless they really do switch from the turbine to a 12 cylinder diesel.

But say your mechanized infantry battalion comes up against a column of 5 or six APC's or medium tanks.  Up rolls the GAU M1, who lays a nice long burst of 500 or 600 rounds directed down the line of the opposing column.  It would be handy as hell in a close support role.  The 30mm wouldn't have the range or direct punch of the 120mm smoothbore, but it would be much faster in close.

And of course, it would be much to complicated and prone to breakage to be actually useful.

I guess the other thing I could go for would be a dual or quad setup with a 30mm version of the Bushmaster dual-feed gun, firing the same ammo as the GAU-8.  Sort of a US ground-support ZSU.  I just like the pure overkill of the GAU.

I'm liking this idea as a 1/35 scale, maybe even a diorama.  I already have a bunch of 1/35 Dragon US Marines.  But I'd have to scratchbuild the darn gun.

[elmayerle]

Well, instead of the GAU-8/A, how about using a pair GAU-9/A's (derivative of the Oerlikon KCA on the Viggen)?  The ammo's the same and a pair of those, perhaps along the lines of the twin-gun FlakPanther proposal, should work nicely.

If you *really* want the rate of fire of a gatling-type gun, the perhaps the GAU-13/A would make more sense, it uses the same ammo as the GAU-8/A, but is only a four-barreled gun for use in a gun pod.  I think the Hasegawa armament kits with gun pods have the GPU-5 pods that mount it (might be useful for fitting it to the new turret).

Edit: Corrected designation of Oerlikon guns.

[nev]

Well I think its a great idea for a fire support weapon, anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapon  

And a diorama of it in Kuwait in '91 would look awesome!  

So I say go for it!  And like someone said, may me easier to scratchbuild the gun using plastic rod and stuff.

[Captain Canada]

Sounds good.....for an urban assault type, how about a new turret with a cannon facing fore and aft ? That way, your ammo drums could be on each sidde, and when you get into those tight downtown spots, you don't have to worry about some sneaky Haitian creeping up your backside !

[Jschmus]

You could get similar punch and rate of fire, with a much lower weight, by substituting the GAU-12/U, a five-barrel derivative of the Avenger in 25mm.  It's carried in the air by the AV-8B and the AC-130U.  I believe the Israelis developed an antiaircraft vehicle on the LAV platform using this weapon, along with a Stinger launcher.

When I first read this thread, it put me in mind of the Abrams variants that appear in John Ringo's Aldenata series.  The first is a pretty straightforward mod.  It takes the standard M1A2 tank and bolts a pod on to either side of the turret, containing four M242 Bushmaster 25mm cannon.  The later variant swaps out the original cannon armament for four pods of Metalstorm dispensers.  These are considered ideal for massed fire against swarms of Posleen normals, though it's admitted in the text that they're not good for much else.

On that note, I'd eventually like to kitbash a 1/35 model of "Bun Bun the SheVa Gun".  At that scale, I figure it'll be about the siize of an end table.  1/72 might be more practical/practicable, but I can dream, can't I?

[elmayerle]

You could get similar punch and rate of fire, with a much lower weight, by substituting the GAU-12/U, a five-barrel derivative of the Avenger in 25mm.  It's carried in the air by the AV-8B and the AC-130U.  I believe the Israelis developed an antiaircraft vehicle on the LAV platform using this weapon, along with a Stinger launcher.

When I first read this thread, it put me in mind of the Abrams variants that appear in John Ringo's Aldenata series.  The first is a pretty straightforward mod.  It takes the standard M1A2 tank and bolts a pod on to either side of the turret, containing four M242 Bushmaster 25mm cannon.  The later variant swaps out the original cannon armament for four pods of Metalstorm dispensers.  These are considered ideal for massed fire against swarms of Posleen normals, though it's admitted in the text that they're not good for much else.

On that note, I'd eventually like to kitbash a 1/35 model of "Bun Bun the SheVa Gun".  At that scale, I figure it'll be about the siize of an end table.  1/72 might be more practical/practicable, but I can dream, can't I?

*laughs uproariously*  I'd love to see that one. To give folks an idea of size, the "escape pod" on a SHEVA is derived from an M-1.  

Bit of a snerk here, you really might want to consider a Tiger III, similar to a SHEVA, from the upcoming "Watch on Rhine" by Ringo and Krautman in that universe.  Col. Tom (Tom Krautman is a reserve colonel in the US Army Reserves in the Judge Advocate Corp) has some real fun there.

[Hobbes]

ISTR there was a real-world vehicle with a Gatling gun for air defence. Based on an APC rather than a tank, but my memory is a bit foggy here.

And of course, the ultimate drive-by-shooting vehicle, the GMC van with GE Minigun from the movie 'Last Action Hero'.  

[Davey B]

YES! Re-jigged turret (ZSU-23 or Sergeant York donor maybe?), one BIIIIG cannon and plenty of ammo! Secondary AA role?

Okay it's probably as practical as a chocolate teapot or an inflatable dartboard, but it'd look damn cool B)  

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The rest could be in a turret.  How many rounds does an A-10 carry?  One or two cans in the hull and one in the bustle ammo area would probably work.

I recall reading several entries that stated the ammunition capacity for the ammunition drum on the A-10 was around 1350 rounds.  I don't recall what the number of rounds expended for each burst but it was certainly sufficient for destroying whatever was getting shot up.  I believe the pilot could also select the number of rounds fired for each target engaged which for most targets allowed for definite destruction of the target and anything next to it since it was a "shotgun effect" that worked very well...

While the real world may have focused on just one type of M1, I think the Army should have taken a second look at the "Tank Destroyer" and "Infantry Support" tanks since not all battles will be on vast stretches of open terrain with tank vs tank.  As real life would have it, there will be battles fought in urban settings where the 120mm high velocity gun of the standard M1 is not really capable of providing support to the infantry in close quarters combat and house to house fighting where there is a real need for blowing holes in walls to gain access to the next objective.  This is where high velocity weapons are of little to no use and what is needed is something that will provide immediate direct fire support against point targets such as buildings, bunkers, and obstacles.

This is where the Army should have taken a real hard look at arming a small percentage of the M1 fleet with the 152mm Gun Launcher System for the MGM-51 ''Shillelagh'' Surface Attack Guided Missile which would also include a variety of conventional ammunition types for blasting walls, bunkers, and massed infantry charges in addition to the Shillelagh guided missile for attacking tanks at long range. 

The Infantry Support Tank should retain the standard M1 turret with the protected ammuniton stowage.  The only real and obvious difference being the stubby barrel and fume extractor of the 152mm gun launcher.  Additional modifications to the caseless ammunition would be required and I believe that a new semi-caseless ammuniton could be developed that would benefit from the 120mm cartridge design that when fired leaves behind a spent case that is about the size of a large ash tray.   

The M1 Abrams Infantry Support Tank would also benefit from the shorter barrel of the main gun when it was negotiating narrow streets.  The longer barrel of the 120mm gun would be blocked when attempting to traverse the turret to engage a target while the shorter barrel would not encounter that problem.  While it is considered bad ju ju to put armor into urban settings, it is sometimes necessary in order to get the job done and the M1 Abrams Infantry Support Tank would be ideal for this mission.  Additional features for this vehicle could include a flame thrower weapon for direct action against bunkers and a bulldozer blade to assist in clearing man made obstacles created or urban debris. 

I gave your idea some more thought and came up with another alternative that might be suitable for supporting infantry in direct fire support using the 165mm main gun that was mounted on the M728 Combat Engineer Vehicle and the Centurion AVRE which was based on the Centurion tank in UK service. 

Both of these vehicles were a modification of the basic main battle tank and equipped with a 165mm main gun.  This weapon was capable of reducing structures and obstacles to rubble with the HEP round (high explosive platter charge) and in UK service it was known as HESH (high explosive squash head).  Either way it made a big hole in the wall or the ground (reminds me of a modern day Sturmtiger).  The original M728 CEV was also equipped with a bulldozer blade as well as an "A" frame crane that could lift things out of the way if necessary.  I would like to see a follow-on to the M728 CEV that would be based on the existing M1 hull and armed with the same 165mm demolition gun and bulldozer blade at the very least.  I guess that is only a dream.  I can however make my own...

Another version that came to mind was a direct support M1 for the infantry to allow short range direct and indirect fire support equipped with a 105mm howitzer.  The mission would be similar to the German Wehrmacht SturmGeshutz design but  instead equipped with a turret.  The howizter would have a muzzle brake, bore evacuator and a short barrel like it should since it would be a howitzer and not a main battle tank.  The howitzer M1 should also be equipped with a bulldozer blade to provide a self-emplacement capability to create a hull down position without engineer support or assist the infantry with making defensive positions, clearing away rubble, or filling in craters.  It could also be equipped with a data link to the battery FDC to allow for massing fires on indirect targets in support of other operations but the direct fire support mission for the supported unit would still be the primary mission for this weapon which means you would need to get a telephone connection mounted on the back of the vehicle to allow the infantry to communicate with the crew to adjust fire on targets. 

[nev]

Nice idea, but I think flamethrowers are now banned under the Geneva convention - hence the use of White Phosphorous now (not that that's particularly pleasant either)

[Iranian F-14A]

How about an AA model that could have one of a couple turret configurations.
1. ZSU-23-4-perfect for ex-Warsaw Pact countries.
2.2S6 Tunguska 30mm plus SA-19
3.Geopard 30mm
4. ADATS SAM system.
5. Blazer type turret,as on USMC LAV-AD models with Stinger SAMs and GAU-12 gun.Perfect conversion of USMC Abrams for heavy Air Defense.