Looking for info

[anthonyp]

Anyone know of any other pics of the old proposed USN CSGN's of the 70's, besides what's in Friedman's books on Cruisers and Destroyers?  Specifically, I'm looking for pics of the proposed refit to the USS Long Beach into what would have been a prototype CSGN.

 

[Geoff_B]

Checked my references but only mentions propossed conversion of Long Beach to Aegis and  act as prototype Strike Cruiser, which was then cancelled for fear of the Strike Cruiser program itself getting cancelled.

I know their were earlier proposals to fit Long Beach  with Polaris to act as a surface Ballistic missile carrier.

Cheers

G B)  

[anthonyp]

Thanks, Thor!

Yeah, all the sources I've got have info about the refit, but no profiles, schematics, or pics of it other than the painting in the Friedman book.  I did find a pic online for a Robotech RPG with a side profile of the Long Beach as refit, but they took it a step further, giving it RAM and VLS.

Funny thing about the Polaris emplacement, the ship was actually built with the foundation support for the launchers.  They would have been amid-ship, under what would eventually become the gun emplacements (at least I think it was under the guns, don't have the Friedman book available).

At this point, I'm interested in anything I can get for the CSGN's.  In addition to that, any info on the proposed Spruance DDH would be appreciated too.

[Geoff_B]

Hi Ant

What about the strike cruiser and the Typhon class frigate ?, spotted them in Conways Warships of the World 1946-present. Also got something on the strike cruiser in an early Combat Fleets

Cheers

G

[anthonyp]

Vonways?  Never heard of it, and I can't seem to find it on Amazon.  When was it published, and what's it got on the strike cruiser?

I'm not as interested in the Typhon system as I am the AEGIS system and all ships it was going to be placed on.  I've got plenty on the Typhon from Friedman's books (sizeable chunks of chapters devoted to this failed system), but very little on the CSGN's.

Like I said, any info would be appreciated!

   

[jamakni]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/sys...ship/csgn-1.htm

http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Robotech/Robot...ttlecruiser.htm (Fiction)

http://www.skyrocket.de/usnavy/index_frame...a/csgn-1__-.htm

Had the crude idea of taking two Tomahawk Armored Box launchers (acessories form JAG fine ship models) and placing them on the deck as an Armored box launcher for a pershing II IRBM or as a long range missile defense system

[jamakni]

Not sure if SLBM's on surface ships are such a hot idea.  The reason these missiles are on submarines is that they can remain hidden untill needed and are harder to find, thus increasing the deterrent effect.  Putting them on ships was pointless from the begeining because they would not be as hidden as on submarines.  Having IRBMs and theater missiles on ships to support troops on land is one thing, but having STRATEGIC DETERRENT missiles on a surface ship would make it too valuable a target, one that cant be hidden like a boomer.  TLAMS and TBM's, including nuclear TLAMS, while serving a strategic deterrent role, can also be used to further its anti ship and land attack role within the thear, unlike SLBM's whaich are ment to hit the enemy's population/industrial centers and strategic warfighting centers OUTSIDE the ship's theater.

What was meant by strike cruiser was taking the cruiser, meant to control the seas and give it more of an inland striking capability.

[anthonyp]

Actually, the "IN" weapon of the '50's was the Polaris missile.  The USN studied putting it on all manner of surface ships, ranging from the incomplete battleship Kentucky, to studies for converting the Alaska class to missile ships, to conversions of other light and heavy cruisers, to even the desire to put them onto the Bainbridge DLGN (later CGN) and proposed repeats of that design.  This was a time before cruise missiles were practical, as the only ones that were in service required more prep to fire than the Polaris.  And the early Polaris had the range contemporary IRBM's, such as the Jupiter (actually, the Jupiter out-ranged it).

Like I said, it was the missile of the moment, and someone came up with the idea that they might eventually want to put them on surface ships, thus the foundations built into the Long Beach.

Thanks for the links.  Friedman's books have more detail and illustrations than what's there, but I seem to have lost the particular pic on the last link.  The funny thing is the fictional one you put up also has the VLS Long Beach somewhere else on that site

The initial concept of the Strike Cruiser was one of going back to the original concept of the "cruiser," ie, it being a ship that is able to operate on its own and hunt down targets of opportunity.  Then someone got the bright idea to have one escort every nuclear carrier.  Then there was the braniac that wanted to put a flight deck on it...

The CSGN was originally supposed to be armed with enough missiles (16 Harpoons, 8 Tomahawks, usually TASM) to ambush a Soviet surface group by itself, and have enough anti-air missiles (108 SM's) to defend itself while getting the hell outta dodge.  It would have been the most well protected ship built since WWII, and the largest warship (other than carriers and the Long Beach) built since then.  

And I want a model of one!!  

[Geoff_B]

What about CGN-42 the Aegis equiped Virgina class Nuclear powered cruiser, that seemed to replace the Strike Cruiser before itself being down graded to Ticonderoga class of converted Spruance class hull (and not that pretty a conversion either compared to the original concepts).

As for the Strike Cruiser and Aegis Long Beach try looking for pre 1978 Janes as they may have something before the program got canned.  

[Joe C-P]

The idea of the flight deck was to re-incorporate fixed-wing aircraft in place of helos, using the Harrier. A flight of 4 or 6 would give the cruiser a significantly increased "field of vision", give a second outer layer of anti-aircraft and -missile protection and if equipped for ASW they could react much faster to a sonar contact.

The Aegis Long Beach would have had a rebuilt island and expanded after superstructure to support the new radars. It might even have ended up with a hangar. I've thought about something like this, with a couple VLS forward in place of the twin-arm launchers.

The idea of putting Polaris on surface ship was to spread the missiles around so much that the Soviets couldn't possibly target all of them. The only warship to be so equipped was the Italian cruiser Giuseppe Garibaldi (not the current CVH, a previous ship), and she never received her missiles.

JoeP

[proditor]

Did ya'll see this one?  Nice build IMHO.

http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/cg...rike-index.html

[Guest]

should have put the reply here instesad of sending it to anthonyp.  Any links or sources for polaris armed surface combatats?  JoeP, any chance of posting a link to or reposting your remarks on strike carrier cruisers?  Cnat seem to find them and might be relavent.

[jamakni]

You were right about the polaris missiles:

The ship was designed as an "all-missile" ship from the very beginning, but eventually was constructed with two 5 in (127 mm) 38 caliber gun mounts amidships. The space taken up by the 5 in (127 mm) 38 caliber mounts and the Anti-Submarine Rocket (ASROC) system was, at different times, slated for the Regulus ship-to-shore missile or, later, the Polaris missile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Long_Beac...ach_%28CGN-9%29

Ill try to get some diagrams

[Joe C-P]

Here's one possibility, though rather a speculative and unlikely one:



More likely the two forward launchers would have been replaced by VLS, and a hangar built aft, with mount points for two of the flat-panel radars. She really needed an upgrade for her 5" guns as well, since the ones she carried were old refurbished models that were only semi-automatic.

To make a realistic version, use parts from a VLS Ticonderoga to replace the after superstructure, mount the forward radars on that big box. Replace the guns, remove the ASROC launcher, and put two VLS forward.

JoeP

[anthonyp]

Thanks, Joe.  I already had that one, and am using it for modeling the superstructure, which looks pretty close to the painting in Friedman's book.  The CGN-42 was supposed to have more of the Tico's superstructure, though modified to make it closer to the Burke's (phased arrays at the corners, as opposed to the sides of the superstructure).  I'm going to put two VLS batteries on it, as well as some Phalanx.  I'll be skipping the RAM on the pic, and will probably only go with two or three VLS launchers, as opposed to the four in the pic.

The pic of the Long Beach and your proposed modifications reminds me of a ship from the naval strategy games Harpoon II and Harpoon III.  They've got something called an Alaska Class Nuclear powered Guided Missile Battlecruiser (BCGN) in the game, whose picture was an elongated Tico.  It had something like 4-6 LAMPS III's, four 64 cell VLS, and two guns of either 5" or 8" size.  The thing was fun in combat.

I realize the flight deck on the CGSN was meant to offer longer eyesite to the ship, but the ship as proposed suffered from a list to starboard that couldn't be corrected.  That's what I meant by my comment (a ship that constantly lists...  BRILLIANT!!).

The best source of info that I've found for these ships (and many others) are the "Illustrated Design History" books by Norman Friedman.  He's got one each on carriers, destroyers (includes today's "Cruisers"), real cruisers (CGN-9 was the last real cruiser built, but also has a nice chunk on the CSGN's), battleships, submarines, amphibious warefare ships (I like the fire support ship with one Iowa class BB turret on it), and patrol combatants.  The only one I don't have is the one on patrol combatants, though I have gone through it briefly at a local hobby shop.  Each book is full of detailed design discussions, and some of the thought processes that went into each design.  Plenty of diagrams and pics too.  The Destroyer one was recently updated with info on the Burkes, DD-21, DD(X), LCS, NFR, and a few other ships, including some of the SC-21 stuff.

Online, it's a little harder to come by, but Global Security's US Naval weapons pages have some good (if incomplete) info.