AIM-54 Phoenix

seadude · July 19, 2009, 06:58:26 PM

I've always been curious to ask about this (and am thinking of building a "What If" model in the future), But why couldn't the US Navy's AIM-54 Phoenix air-to-air missile which was used on F-14 Tomcats, possibly be used on an Air Force F-15's?

Ed S · July 19, 2009, 07:11:26 PM

They could have. If the AF would have been willing to invest the money converting the F-15 to carry them. It would have meant modification to install the AWG-9 radar from the Tomcat, or more likely a redesign of the radar that would have better over ground capability than the Tomcat. And reconfiguring the external stores positions to support the weight of the missiles. And hauling those missile around on the F-15 would have been a significant drag penalty as well as seriously degrade the dogfight manuverability of the F-15. . Basically, it was a capability that the AF didn't think that they needed and it wasn't worth the cost. There was a major difference in design philosophy between the two a/c. The Tomcat/Phoenix combo was designed to protect the Navy A/C Carrier battlegroup from long range Soviet bombers and cruise missiles. The F-15 was intended to be the supreme air to air fighter of its generation and the long range interception of cruise missiles wasn't part of its expected mission.

Ed

Taiidantomcat · July 19, 2009, 09:35:49 PM

Agree with Ed. Just a matter of putting in the radar, supporting the extra weight of the missile and of course the hardest part--finding the money to do it

Cobra · July 19, 2009, 09:55:03 PM

Did you Guys know the Phoenix was Planned for the YF-12A before they Provided it to the F-14??? Read that once!!!! i think if The USAF had planned a Mig-25 type Aircraft,the Phoenix would've been a Good Choice!!!! myabe you should see if a Phoenix would work with Something like a Vulcan or Russian Sneeze Jet!!!!!

Shasper · July 19, 2009, 10:43:12 PM

Thats why Air Defense Command wanted the F-14 as its new IMI to replace the F-106, 'cuz the F-15 was intended to be more of a MiG-eater instead of a deterrent against the strategic bombers of mother Russia.

Shas

Weaver · July 20, 2009, 04:48:06 AM

Probably the easiest way of doing that would be to put the extra fuel in FAST packs, have a Pheonix on each wing pylon along with the Sidewinders, and two more in tandem on an F-14 pallet on the centreline. On the downside, you wouldn't be able to dump the FAST packs like you could drop tanks, but then Russian bombers don't exactly demand agility to intercept, and McDonnell Douglas claim that the FAST packs actually improve the aircraft's speed...

Jeffry Fontaine · July 20, 2009, 06:45:45 AM

Quote from: seadude on July 19, 2009, 06:58:26 PMI've always been curious to ask about this (and am thinking of building a "What If" model in the future), But why couldn't the US Navy's AIM-54 Phoenix air-to-air missile which was used on F-14 Tomcats, possibly be used on an Air Force F-15's?

As already mentioned by earlier replies, the AIM-54 was performing a bomber and cruise missile killing mission in the fleet defense role for the Navy. The F-15 was supposed to be a fighter killer as in air-superiority fighter or what is now known as air dominance (sounds a bit like bondage and discipline). With that being said, an F-15 WHIF armed with the AIM-54 could fulfill the role of a very long range air defense interceptor as well as an air superiority fighter with the various Air National Guard squadrons tasked with the mission of defending North American air space. It might have been a great enhancement for the F-15 to have been armed with one, two, or three of the AIM-54 missiles for beyond visual range engagements that needed a bit more punch from the larger warhead.

What if the SAGE system and AWACS could have been integrated with the F-15 and AIM-54? Perhaps it could have led to the F-15 carrying several of the weapons that could have been launched after targets were identified and designated by the controllers on the ground or aboard the AWACS? Leaving the F-15 to still perform as a fighter and airborne missile launch platform for the AWACS and SAGE systems. That could be the back-story behind any F-15 WHIF so armed with the AIM-54 if you wanted a reason for this match up. Other candidate aircraft for arming with the AIM-54 could be the F-106 and F-4.

Quote from: Cobra on July 19, 2009, 09:55:03 PMDid you Guys know the Phoenix was Planned for the YF-12A before they Provided it to the F-14??? Read that once!!!!

Guess you should have read it twice...

In the real world the Hughes GAR-9/AIM-47 Falcon was tested on the YF-12 Interceptor. While the AIM-54 Phoenix and the AIM-47 Falcon missiles have a very similar appearance there is a very noticeable difference between the two when a visual comparison can be made between the two weapons as seen at this link. The AIM-47 Falcon is on the left side in this image and the AIM-54 is on the right side of the image with a gofer in flying garments standing at attention in the center to provide an appreciation of the size of these two weapons.

Quote from: Andreas Parsch (http://www.designationsystems.net)In 1957 Hughes was developing a weapon system as part of the USAF's LRI-X requirement for a Mach 3 interceptor. The system was composed of the XY-1 fire control system and the GAR-X air-to-air missile. As originally envisaged, the GAR-X would have used interchangeable HE or nuclear warheads, with a range of between 15 and 25 miles (25-40 km). In April of 1958 the systems, which were by then assigned to the winning LRI-X design, were assigned the designations AN/ASG-18 and GAR-9. The winning LRI-X design was, of course, the North American F-108 Rapier. At one point in 1957 an XF-103 was considered for use by Hughes for weapon system trials for systems associated with the LRI-X program. When the F-108 program was cancelled on 23 September 1959, it was determined that the AN/ASG-18 and GAR-9 would continue to be developed.

Additional reference links:

Wikipedia - AIM-47 Falcon
Wikipedia - AIM-54 Phoenix
Designation Systems - AIM-54 Phoenix

Weaver · July 20, 2009, 07:24:49 PM

According to American Secret Projects, McDonnell Douglas schemed up a naval F-15 with 4 x AIM-54 during the early 1970s debates about dropping either the F-14 or F-15. There's no picture of it though.

Bill TGH · July 21, 2009, 03:49:08 PM

http://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/aim47-2.jpg

the aim-47 was the precursor to the Pheonix (I think) and it was a snug fit, but there is not a lot to choose as far as dimensions go.... perhaps the Pheonix II could have the swollen warhead of an AIR-2 Genie (Cdn Voodoos)

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/xaim-47a.jpg

XAIM-47A AIM-47B
Length 3.82 m (12 ft 6.5 in)
Wingspan 83.8 cm (33 in)
Diameter 34.3 cm (13.5 in) 33.0 cm (13.0 in)
Weight 371 kg (818 lb) 363 kg (800 lb)
Speed Mach 4
Range > 160 km (100 miles)
Propulsion Lockheed XSR13-LP-1 solid-fueled rocket
Warhead 45 kg (100 lb) high-explosive

AIM-54A AIM-54C
Length 4.01 m (13 ft 1.8 in)
Wingspan 92.5 cm (36.4 in)
Finspan 92.5 cm (36.4 in)
Diameter 38.1 cm (15 in)
Weight 453 kg (1000 lb) 462 kg (1020 lb)
Speed Mach 4.3 ach 5
Ceiling 24800 m (81400 ft) 30500 m (100000 ft)
Range 130 km (72.5 nm) 150 km (80 nm)
Propulsion Rocketdyne MK 47 or Aerojet MK 60 single-stage solid-fueled rocket motor
Warhead 60 kg (132 lb) MK 82 blast-fragmentation 60 kg (132 lb) WDU-29/B blast-fragmentation

Jeffry Fontaine · July 21, 2009, 05:43:39 PM

Quote from: Bill TGH on July 21, 2009, 03:49:08 PMhttp://www.wvi.com/~sr71webmaster/aim47-2.jpg

The first image you provided a link to is an excellent example of the very small space available in the YF-12 weapons bay.

MAD · February 14, 2017, 04:05:26 PM

Quote from: viper29_ca on October 12, 2004, 04:44:47 PM
The US Navy may not have scored many, if any kills with Phoenix missiles, but the Iranian Air Force has over 150 kills using F-14s, and about 30 or so of those with Phoenix Missiles, so its not like they have no kills at all. Of course there is no word on how many missiles they fired to get their 30+ kills, but I doubt they had that many missiles to start with.

Sea Phoenix system, comes via the Shipbucket forum.
http://s11.invisionfree.com/shipbucket/ar/t802.htm

MAD

tahsin · February 15, 2017, 01:25:07 AM

Randomly checking it and I saw the qouted post. Iranians are disowning those kills, as they did in the 1980s. All those planes "were" shot down by the air defences of the Revolutionary Guards. The original source of the claims contribute, in their current hate for anything Iranian, considering the Sunnis are given one drubbing after another and what's more amazing it has got nothing to do with the "doctored" Iraqi records now available.