F-35 Lightning II (aka JSF)

[GTX]

Frankly any F-35 pilot who finds themselves in a close in dogfight where a gun is necessary deserves to die.  To end up in this situation means he/she has given up all the advantages of this platform.

[MilitaryAircraft101]

Yeah, I 'spose, but at least it's there if some freak compromise of stealth gets you on their radars and intercepted...

[pyro-manic]

Frankly any F-35 pilot who finds themselves in a close in dogfight where a gun is necessary deserves to die.  To end up in this situation means he/she has given up all the advantages of this platform.

Doesn't mean that it won't happen, though.

[sideshowbob9]

Frankly any F-35 pilot who finds themselves in a close in dogfight where a gun is necessary deserves to die.  To end up in this situation means he/she has given up all the advantages of this platform.

Ouch! It is very rarely a warfighter can dictate the circumstances to the battle. They tend to be a tad chaotic by dint of being battles.

The lessons of Vietnam seem to have been forgotten. No matter how gee-whiz the tech, ALWAYS bring a gun!

[Thorvic]

Frankly any F-35 pilot who finds themselves in a close in dogfight where a gun is necessary deserves to die.  To end up in this situation means he/she has given up all the advantages of this platform.

Rather harsh especially when the 'Rules of Engagement' prevent BVR combats and restrict offensive action to only respond if actually targeted or require a visual confirmation before live firing is allowed. 

[Taiidantomcat]

Frankly any F-35 pilot who finds themselves in a close in dogfight where a gun is necessary deserves to die.  To end up in this situation means he/she has given up all the advantages of this platform.

Ouch! It is very rarely a warfighter can dictate the circumstances to the battle. They tend to be a tad chaotic by dint of being battles.

The lessons of Vietnam seem to have been forgotten. No matter how gee-whiz the tech, ALWAYS bring a gun!

The only American air to air kill with a gun in the post Vietnam era was an A-10 against a helicopter in 1991. Guns have been used in close support of troops far more often than in air to air combat (and an A-10 strafing a low flying helicopter isn't really what I would consider "air combat" anyway, especially not in the classical sense, but lets just pretend) Vietnam's poor missile success rate, was not as simple as "missiles=garbage" ROE, Pilot training, missile maintenance, poor ACM tactics, and many other factors contributed to the "need for a gun"

Greg is absolutely right- Think of the F-35 as a scout Sniper. Only an extremely poor sniper gets into a knife fight or a bayonet duel, its far better to invest time and energy into promoting strengths of stealth, tactical thought, and weapons employment (IE killing the enemy from 800M unseen), than bayonet drills in the very off chance that he needs it. I believe in the gun, but the chances of an F-35 actually needing it are so small for modern air combat, that you could probably get away without it. Again very handy for ground support as a last ditch device. The lessons of Vietnam have not been forgotten which is why a gun is planned and included... but if an F-35 gets an air to air gun kill in its entire career with any service, I will give everyone who has participated in this thread a free kit from my stash. Seriously.

Yeah, not an ideal dogfighter

Based upon???

Ideal dogfighter? No. It is quite agile, especially at low speed, where it's high thrust really helps, but against modern 3D TV aircraft, it is outmatched.

I really think you need to be careful about the very "decisive guesses" you are making... There are dozens and dozens of factors that go into an aircraft's maneuverability and not all Thrust Vectoring is created equal.  

If the ROE is that awful, you got more problems than a gun.

[sideshowbob9]

By that reasoning, you don't need Trident because it's highly unlikely you will ever use it.

A fighter is not a sniper, it is a fighter and I for one would prefer one capable of dealing with all A2A engagement eventualities for that much £$£$£££$, big, small, near or far or all it is is a paperweight!

[Thorvic]

Right until the F-35 enters front line service or we actually get a proper model kit of the F-35 variants i think i shall close this thread down, there are plenty of LM propganda/bashing threads on all the aviation forums and rather than sour the mood on here we'll call it a day until there something we can actually build and whiff