F-35 Lightning II (aka JSF)

[Maverick]

Is there a reason the C doesn't have the cannon fairing?  I thought that the B was the only model not to have an internal gun?

Neither of them does.

Donny, I was of the understanding that the A & C models would feature the gun and it would be a podded option for the B.  Perhaps that's changed.

Regards,

Mav

[GTX]

Nope, it has always been that the A was the only one with the integral gun.

[Maverick]

Nps.  I'd heard the other thing before they'd ever flown the type, so perhaps it was merely scuttlebutt.

Regards,

Mav

[MilitaryAircraft101]

Screw the guns, I just want 6 AMRAAMs in the carriage!  Just A with gun though, needed to save weight on both B & C.

[Maverick]

6 amraams are great, but what happens when there's 7 bad guys or some are defeated?

You can't use ECM on a gun and if you need to hit something on the ground, you have the option.

Regards,

Mav

[Taiidantomcat]

The nice thing about having an optional gun on the C is there is more room for gas for the 99 percent of the non combat time the aircraft flies.  Learned something new last night as well,  with full fuel the F-35B is the fastest version  . At half empty (or half full depending on your personal philosophy) the F-35A is the fastest, but the F-35C won't even break the sound barrier at 50 percent full.

[ChernayaAkula]

6 amraams are great, but what happens when there's 7 bad guys or some are defeated?
<...>

You turn around and fly home thinking about two things:
1. Discretion is the better part of valour.
2. Woohoo, ace in a day*, baby!

The seventh one won't pursue you, because he was either shot down by your wingman or because he turned around upon seeing six fireballs where his wingies used to be.

No, seriously, of course you could argue that there could always be one or more enemies than you have missiles. But how realistic is it? When was the last time a flight (not just a single aircraft) was all out of missiles? Maybe in the Arab-Israeli wars, when Mirages only had two Sidewinders/Shafrirs each. And when was the last time there were enough targets for a whole flight?





*The ace-in-a-day-bit is only good against proper planes. Drones only count as half kills. Clubbing baby seals and all that.

[MilitaryAircraft101]

6 amraams are great, but what happens when there's 7 bad guys or some are defeated?

You can't use ECM on a gun and if you need to hit something on the ground, you have the option.

Regards,

Mav

Guns are good and will always be needed (F-4s in Vietnam) so we still should want them for backup, but I just can't wait until you can stick 6 AAMs in the carriage. (It is bigger than the Raptor's after all)

[Hobbes]

re: Vietnam, (from Wikipedia

The Vietnam War made it clear that the air-to-air missiles then in use by the USAF were inadequate. The AIM-9 Sidewinder had limited "off-boresight" capability, which meant that the launching aircraft had to point itself at the target in order to lock-on. As the Sidewinder's seeker could only see the hot exhaust of the engine, in practice this meant that the launching aircraft had to line up behind the target for a shot, and follow it for a time prior to launch. In practice, pilots would often take shots at aircraft that were passing by the front of their own aircraft, launching as soon as the seeker's indicator growl was heard. By the time the missile had cleared the launch aircraft, the target was no longer in the seeker's view, and the missile would fly off ballistically. The initial US response was to train their pilots to only fire missiles under certain conditions, and use their cannon under others.

In 1970 the British Ministry of Defence came to the conclusion that a better short-range missile was needed, and drew up a request for proposals (Air Staff Target 1218). This outlined the need for better maneuverability and a wider seeker angle, in order to successfully intercept the target in the types of shots the pilots were attempting to make, as opposed to demanding they not take those shots.

The Sparrow had other shortcomings (lack of short-range performance as the firing procedure took a long time). Both have been addressed by now.

[rickshaw]

Another reason why guns were found necessary were the rules of engagement.  All air-to-air engagements required visual ID of the opponent to prevent blue-on-blue kills.   The Vietnamese were able to exploit this, as it often meant that the US aircraft had to close to within engagement range for the Sparrow but still outside of the engagement range of the Sidewinder.  The result was that the visual only interceptors, such as the MiG-17 were found to be more effective than the much faster, radar equipped MiG-21s.  They were able to turn inside the larger Phantoms and Crusaders and use their guns.  The US pilots clammered for the return of guns on the Phantom (the Crusader of course always had them) and so the F-4E was born.   That, plus improved tactics and dissimilar aircombat training meant they were able to get the measure of the Vietnamese MiGs.

[Taiidantomcat]

Another reason why guns were found necessary were the rules of engagement.  All air-to-air engagements required visual ID of the opponent to prevent blue-on-blue kills.   The Vietnamese were able to exploit this, as it often meant that the US aircraft had to close to within engagement range for the Sparrow but still outside of the engagement range of the Sidewinder.  The result was that the visual only interceptors, such as the MiG-17 were found to be more effective than the much faster, radar equipped MiG-21s.  They were able to turn inside the larger Phantoms and Crusaders and use their guns.  The US pilots clammered for the return of guns on the Phantom (the Crusader of course always had them) and so the F-4E was born.   That, plus improved tactics and dissimilar aircombat training meant they were able to get the measure of the Vietnamese MiGs.

agreed with all of the above. Should also include that missiles got more reliable as pilots were trained more about their limitations and as ordnance depts. got better at maintaining and caring for them as was once said "you treat these highly complex missiles like old iron bombs, then thats exactly what they will act like!"

Not surprisingly, missiles today are a bit further ahead than the early missiles from 40 or so years ago. Still a place for a gun of course, but things have changed.

[rickshaw]

Guns have considerable utility and rounds are cheaper than rockets or missiles (but only just nowadays.  Large calibre rounds cost quite a lot if the latest reports I've read are to be believed).  I can see them being replaced with smart rockets though, once their price per unit comes down and their accuracy comes up.

[Maverick]

You're still at the point of a much more limited supply of smart FFARs than an ammunition tank.  Whilst cannon rounds are dumb (and by cannon I'm obviously referring to automatic weapons of the 20mm-30mm class), there are still a bucketload of them for the modern fighter (providing they aren't squeezed off in one fell swoop).  To have a similar loadout of smart FFARs, one would be toting quite a few draggy, external pods rather than a weapon that is internal, doesn't not detract from carrying other stores and cannot be defeated by current defensive technologies.

After all, this aircraft's main selling point is 'low observability' which precludes the regular carriage of external stores.

Regards,

Mav

[Taiidantomcat]

After all, this aircraft's main selling point is 'low observability' which precludes the regular carriage of external stores.

True, but the pod is going to be LO- Still havnt personally seen the "final version" though,



Found on page 4.

[rickshaw]

The point of the smart rocket is that you need only one to achieve a hit whereas with a cannon, you need to fire a burst to guarantee a hit.  So, effectively you should need to only carry a fraction of the number of cannot rounds you need to carry to get the same or better effect.   While the method of carriage appears to be a bit of a problem at the moment, I can see something like the WWII German tested rotating nebelwerfer being used quite easily.  Pop open and close doors fore and aft and your stealth is preserved.   If you feel more than six rounds are needed, then you could have an ammunition feed, similar to how many modern cannons use linkless feeds nowadays in aircraft.