F-86 Sabre and FJ Fury

[Daryl J.]

Well gents,

After a 4-year hiatus, I can again deal with glue and paint fumes so the modeling begins afresh.     No, I won't go into details, suffice it to say it was Dr's Orders.

To start things off, I'd love to do a Sabre  in what-if markings.   Lucky Model has Academy 1/48 Sabres for about $10US so I picked up a couple.    Simple but effective schemes sound the most appealing at this point.   Apart from EDSG/Sky/Roundels, I'm blank on ideas.  

What were the Luftwaffe's Marine F-104's painted in (the greys)?  Perhaps that with a red port horizontal stab, a black tail, and a yellow starboard horizontal stab?

Thoughts, comments?    B)  B)  B)



Daryl J., fogged in with cold medicine............... :zzz:  :dum:



PS:   I did a search and all of Jennings Sabres are gone save for the very cool P-86E.   Those all got missed.

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

RAF Aden (sort-of) scheme - Glossy Lt Stone/Dk Earth over Azure Blue. Decals from.... well anywhere really.

RAE - Raspberry Ripple scheme

Mexican - Use Vietnam tan and greens, but in much thinner bands. Decals from Albatros

Marineflieger would be great Bassaltgrau uber Silbergrau mit Leuchtorange bands on the drop tanks & wingtips..... Mmmmm ! Decals from a passing Hasegawa Starfighter could be made to fit

USAF/USN Aggressor - go nutz ! schemes, patterns decals all available relatively easily. Think of those wild schemes they painted the early Navy A-4's in....

Danish (Late) - really tired & patchy overall faded Olive Drab

Can't think of anythin' else just now as I'm at the end of a night watch and even the little pixie in the flying jacket that lives inside my head has gone to sleep !

I H-G

[Daryl J.]

What are the EE Lightnings painted when they have those pink roundels?  The sites I've been to are all over the map when it comes to color used.

I'm gravitating towards doing a British squadron hack in gray/gray/Post Office red with standard blue/white/red roundels.

The simplistic scheme would augment the Sabre's already elegant lines.


My alternative is Basaltgrau/Weissaluminium/Leuchtorange in German markings.

The tertiary choice as of now is a French aircraft in Mirage III blue.  


All plausible, all never happened.    
Daryl J.  

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

What are the EE Lightnings painted when they have those pink roundels?  The sites I've been to are all over the map when it comes to color used.

Two schemes

Darker Greys
Dark Sea Grey over tops of wings and fuselage extending down the fuselage to a point just below the cable ducts.
Barley Grey under the fuselage
Light Aircraft Grey under the wings and stabilizers.

Lighter Greys
Medium Sea Grey over tops of wings and upperfuselage to a mid point at the wing/fuse joint.
Barley Grey lower fuselage and fin
Light Aircraft Grey under the wings and stabilizers.

HTH

I H-G

[gooberliberation]

Sukhoi Su-86, with Soviet engine and with machine guns replaced by heavy cannon.

Apparently it almost happened.    

[Jeffry Fontaine]

My own ideas for a modern F-86 would have been for a new build airframe with current technology being applied for creating a better aircraft.  Some of these things would be:

• One piece canopy similar to what is found on the F-16 or F-22.
• Switching to a turbofan engine such as the F404 to provide better performance, increased range (or loiter time), and fuel economy.
• Increase the number of available underwing stores pylons to at least three per wing.
• Add provisions for air to air refueling by flying boom, hose and drogure, or both.
• Add provisions for wing tip mounted air to air missile launch rails for ATAS, IRIS, Magic, or Sidewinder missiles.
• Switch the gun armamant to a pair of 20mm - 30mm cannons which would be sufficient for dealing with most air and ground targets.

The aircraft should be stressed to allow carriage of larger fuel tanks as well as the usual bombs and missiles.  As a close support aircraft it would not really be necessary to add a fire control radar but there would be a need for INS and GPS related systems to keep the pilot informed about where they are on the battlefield.  I would imagine that the aircraft would be smart enough to allow employment of precision guided weapons such as the AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-114 Hellfire, Brimstone, as well as laser guided bombs.  Other ordnance combinations for close air support would include standard general purpose bombs, fire bombs, gun pods, rockets, and cluster bombs.  This would be a light and agile close support aircraft without all of the trappings currently associated with the current crop of wunder waffen such as the F-16, F-18, F-15, F-22, and F-35. 

[dy031101]

North American proposed a TF30-powered (and therefore enlarged) FJ-4B for the competition that led to A-7 Corsair.  That could be the basis for the modern F-86.

Unable to find further info on it, what I have in mind is this:

1. turbofan engine (either TF30 or re-engined with a more powerful/reliable type such as Spey TF41)

2. 2 x Mk 12 20mm cannons

3. three hardpoints under each wing (AIM-9s under midwing hardpoints and bombs/rockets/ASMs under others)

4. centreline under fuselage attachment point for FLIR or laser designator pod (this one is not my speculation but my imagination- I didn't like A-7's having to devote a store hardpoint just to use a FLIR pod)

Of course, compatibilities with AGM-65 and glide/guided bombs would be followed by those of Litening pod and Brimstone missiles as they became available......

What I'm unable to imagine is how much the airframe would be enlarged as a result of using TF30 or TF41...... does anyone have an idea on that?



Or simply a modernised FJ-4B with the afore-mentioned descriptions 2. to 4. and J52-P-8A or J52-P-408 turbojet (or even, like jeffryfontaine said, F404-GE-100D turbofan) engine......

[Jeffry Fontaine]

North American proposed a TF30-powered (and therefore enlarged) FJ-4B for the competition that led to A-7 Corsair.  That could be the basis for the modern F-86.

]What I'm unable to imagine is how much the airframe would be enlarged as a result of using TF30 or TF41...... does anyone have an idea on that?

Your suggestion to use the TF30 or the TF41/Spey in the F-86 airframe would be great if you are going to perform a scale-o-rama using a 1/32nd F-86 kit as a 1/48th scale subject.  Both of these engines are far too large for a standard F-86/AF-1/FJ airframe.  The J52 or the preferred F404 would be much better suited to the F-86 airframe since they are signaficantly smaller in size.  Your suggestion reminds me of the F-86C/YF-93A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_YF-93 which was developed to compete against the F-90 and F-88 and used a different engine and it was also fitted with dual wheels all around due to the increased weight of the aircraft.  I believe that the F404 would be much easier to adapt to an airframe such as the F-86 when you consider the success that was had with the A-4 Skyhawk modernization that was undertaken by Singapore. 

centreline under fuselage attachment point for FLIR or laser designator pod (this one is not my speculation but my imagination- I didn't like A-7's having to devote a store hardpoint just to use a FLIR pod)

Not a lot of room under the fuselage for anything since the main landing gear are in the way.  The FLIR pod on the A-7 was a second generation sensor, the later third generation LANTIRN EO/FLIR/Radar systems developed for the F-15E are much smaller and could be adapted to the fuselage of the F-86 or be built into the airframe, perhaps a simple stretch of the fuselage by insterting a plug forward and aft of the wings would allow the incorporation of these systems as well as some additional fuel.  The stretched fuselage would also be ideal for the addition of a second seat for another crewmember.  Since this would be a close air support aircraft, the second set of eyeballs would be ideal for the forward air control mission as well as acquiring targets with the electro-optical weapons which would free the pilot to maneuver the aircraft.   

Of course, compatibilities with AGM-65 and glide/guided bombs would be followed by those of Litening pod and Brimstone missiles as they became available

The advantage of using the AGM-65 and other electro-optical guided weapons fitted with the standard TV or the IIR seeker could be used to acquire the target prior to launch.  This was one of the hidden benefits of adding this type of weapon to older aircraftr such as the F-4, A-4, A-7 and the A-10, all of which had no dedicated electro-optical viewing system incorporated into the airframe using the TV, or IIR seeker as an ersatz FLIR or TV for the pilot. 

2 X Mk 12 20mm cannons

(From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Mk_12_cannon)"The Mk 12 was an advanced derivative of the wartime Hispano HS 404 that had been used on a variety of American and British fighter aircraft during World War."  The ground and naval mounts for the Mk 12 20mm cannon required that the gunners administer lubricration oil or grease to the ammunition prior to firing otherwise the guns would jam.  The aircraft mounts were apparently fitted with a lubrication oil resovoir that performed this same function.  A friend of mine that actually fired these weapons during the Vietnam war had nothing good to say about them and described having to keep a bucket of lube oil and a paint brush nearby when firing to "baste" the ammunition as it was fed into the guns.  Not the best choice for an aircraft weapon.  I would imagine there are several better choices available now that would perform much better.  Perhaps switching to a single 25mm - 30mm cannon would be better, dropping from two weapons to one since the performance and firepower available would be greater for the single weapon over a pair of 20mm cannons. 

[dy031101]

Your suggestion to use the TF30 or the TF41/Spey in the F-86 airframe would be great if you are going to perform a scale-o-rama using a 1/32nd F-86 kit as a 1/48th scale subject.  Both of these engines are far too large for a standard F-86/AF-1/FJ airframe.  The J52 or the preferred F404 would be much better suited to the F-86 airframe since they are signaficantly smaller in size.  Your suggestion reminds me of the F-86C/YF-93A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_YF-93 which was developed to compete against the F-90 and F-88 and used a different engine and it was also fitted with dual wheels all around due to the increased weight of the aircraft.

After hard brainstorming, I kind of think that maybe the size of YF-93 wouldn't look bad with the aerodynamic alterations of FJ-4B...... assuming that's as far as the enlargement goes.

Not a lot of room under the fuselage for anything since the main landing gear are in the way.  The FLIR pod on the A-7 was a second generation sensor......

The advantage of using the AGM-65 and other electro-optical guided weapons fitted with the standard TV or the IIR seeker could be used to acquire the target prior to launch.  This was one of the hidden benefits of adding this type of weapon to older aircraftr such as the F-4, A-4, A-7 and the A-10, all of which had no dedicated electro-optical viewing system incorporated into the airframe using the TV, or IIR seeker as an ersatz FLIR or TV for the pilot.

Guess that'll do.

I would imagine there are several better choices available now that would perform much better.  Perhaps switching to a single 25mm - 30mm cannon would be better, dropping from two weapons to one since the performance and firepower available would be greater for the single weapon over a pair of 20mm cannons. 

Dropping Mk 12 cannons, the VAL competition predated the development of Bushmaster cannon (a factor in my consideration during my previous post), so the North American entry might have to make do with Pontiac M39 20mm cannons (actually I found that these are used by F-86H) instead.  Of course, later constructions might opt for a more powerful armament.

The stretched fuselage would also be ideal for the addition of a second seat for another crewmember.  Since this would be a close air support aircraft, the second set of eyeballs would be ideal for the forward air control mission as well as acquiring targets with the electro-optical weapons which would free the pilot to maneuver the aircraft. 

For people who could use some reference, below is a TF-86F (with the second seat and the obligatory fuselage stretch).

Now that I come to think about it, a J52-powered F-1C (a.k.a. FJ-3, which is pretty much the properly-navalized Saber) would be visually-pleasing, too.  Give it the same modification as the TF-86F......

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I spent a few minutes this afternoon trying to create my interpretation of a modern F-86E/F fitted with a one piece windscreen/canopy. 

The results are pleasing but I am starting to think that the AF-1 Fury would be a better choice due to the raised portion directly behind the canopy which was needed to fill in the blank space created by removing the original canopy outline and adding in the F-22 canopy. 

Edit: Improved on the original drawing and increased the size slightly to allow better detail.

[Mossie]

What are the EE Lightnings painted when they have those pink roundels?  The sites I've been to are all over the map when it comes to color used.

I'm gravitating towards doing a British squadron hack in gray/gray/Post Office red with standard blue/white/red roundels.

The simplistic scheme would augment the Sabre's already elegant lines.


My alternative is Basaltgrau/Weissaluminium/Leuchtorange in German markings.

The tertiary choice as of now is a French aircraft in Mirage III blue. 


All plausible, all never happened.    
Daryl J. 

If your going RAF, how about putting it in wraparound DG/DSG & bombing it up?  Low vis roundels in a Strike Command Squadron colours, rob the parts & decals from Revells Hunter FGA.9.  Subtle whiff, without being too subtle but enought to make the casual observer scratch their heads.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I spent some more time this evening trying to create another of my interpretations of a modern F-86 fitted with a one piece canopy. 

This time it started with an F-86H drawing and the canopy from an F-16 was blended into the fuselage.  The area behind the canopy still required a larger fairing which again hints at maybe the AF-1 Fury would be a better choice again due to the raised portion directly behind the canopy which was needed to fill in the blank space created by removing the original canopy outline and adding in the F-16 canopy.

[elmayerle]

I've got the bits and pieces (at home, darn it) to combine a F-86H fuselage with the wings and tail surfaces of the FJ-4B.  I could easily combine some more bits to add a more modern canopy.  The deeper fuselage would definitely allow a dry F404 or F414.

[GTX]

What if sotoolslinger's Delta100 (see here) needed a trial bird for the "new" delta wing first:



Regards,

Greg

[Mossie]

How about adding a T-tail, or maybe a tail set high up the fin? I'm not the biggest T-tail fan (ducks), but engineers were a Little skittish about tailless designs in the early days, & I think it might suit it.