Alternative Armour Thoughts

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I wonder how awkward it was to operate that quad 20mm turret as far as loading and maintaining the weapons.  Unless the werhmacht transisitions from that clip fed system to something with linked feed systems, the crew would be hard pressed to maintain any kind of sustained high rate of fire.  

I would think that a centrally mounted commanders/gunners position with the guns paired up on either side of the turret (think Gepard and the Italian weapons) or all four mounted in the center with the gunner to the rear in a fashion similar to the Russian ZSU-23-4.  

Staggering the weapons as they have done leads to an interesting design inside and makes me wonder if you had to be a contortionist to service the weapons.  Anyway you look at it, it is going to be crowded inside that thing.  

[GTX]

Hi folks,

Some more inspiration for your armour what-ifs:  The Panther Anti-Tank/Anti-Helicopter vehicle.




This was a tank destroyer based on the hull of the Leopard 1 chassis. They were to be converted by removing the turret and fitting an elevating arm with a 3 (4?) round pod firing the Trigat ATGM. The arm could be raised to a height of 5 meters and contained all the sensors needed to target and guide the missiles. The sight was downlinked to a gunner's position in the hull, which guided the missiles via a TV monitor. There was a hatch on the center front deck for the driver, one on the right deck behind the driver for the commander, and a large hatch behind the elevating arm for reloading of missiles. This program was cancelled in the early 1990s after only one prototype was built.

Does anyone else have more information on it?  Photos of the prototype would be especially welcome.

Regards,

Greg

[General Zod]

Greg

That's the first I've heard of that variant Looks like something out of a sci-fi movie Thanks for the photos

Chad  

[GTX]

Chad,

You're welcome - it was actually a real project.  The main pic is actually from a review of German Defence Forces from 1989.

Here is another bit of inspiration from the real world:

The Nemerah Heavy APC.

A new armored personnel carrier (APC) based on the chassis of older Merkava I and II series tanks.  This APC has the thick armor of the Merkava, but the turret is removed and a remotely controlled (from inside the vehicle) heavy machine-gun would be added. The Merkava lends itself to this kind of modification, because the engine is mounted in the front and there is already a door in the back of the vehicle.






I wonder if I could modify a M1A1 along these lines?  Having the engine at the rear makes it difficult.

Regards,

Greg

[General Zod]

Some years back I remember reading that some post war M26 Pershing tanks were considered for an upgrade to a 105mm main gun witha muzzle brake to counter the Soviet Stalin tanks I just wonder if the turret and or gun mantlet was any different

Another idea,for me anyway,is an M26 armed with a 6 inch howitzer and having a dozer blade Kind of like the CEV based on the M60 series It would be used for bunker busting

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Some years back I remember reading that some post war M26 Pershing tanks were considered for an upgrade to a 105mm main gun witha muzzle brake to counter the Soviet Stalin tanks I just wonder if the turret and or gun mantlet was any different

Another idea,for me anyway,is an M26 armed with a 6 inch howitzer and having a dozer blade Kind of like the CEV based on the M60 series It would be used for bunker busting

There was a howitzer version of the M26 that was designated the M45 if I remember correctly, this was short-lived and they were all converted to a regular M26 series with 90mm gun.  

The M47 was upgraded by the Spanish Army to include the power pack of the M60 series to include the trademark engine deck and cooling vents that were a readily identifiable feature of the late M48 models and all M60 series tanks.  

The Spanish Army also removed the 90mm guns on their M47s and replaced it with the M68 105mm gun that was used on the M60 and later upgraded M48s.  The only real changes to the tanks were internal as the turret remained unmodified on the outside but inside they were modified for ammunition storage and fire controls.  

[General Zod]

Some years back I remember reading that some post war M26 Pershing tanks were considered for an upgrade to a 105mm main gun witha muzzle brake to counter the Soviet Stalin tanks I just wonder if the turret and or gun mantlet was any different

Another idea,for me anyway,is an M26 armed with a 6 inch howitzer and having a dozer blade Kind of like the CEV based on the M60 series It would be used for bunker busting

There was a howitzer version of the M26 that was designated the M45 if I remember correctly, this was short-lived and they were all converted to a regular M26 series with 90mm gun.  

The M47 was upgraded by the Spanish Army to include the power pack of the M60 series to include the trademark engine deck and cooling vents that were a readily identifiable feature of the late M48 models and all M60 series tanks.  

The Spanish Army also removed the 90mm guns on their M47s and replaced it with the M68 105mm gun that was used on the M60 and later upgraded M48s.  The only real changes to the tanks were internal as the turret remained unmodified on the outside but inside they were modified for ammunition storage and fire controls.

Jeff

Thanks for the info The M45 was pretty much Korean way I think The what-if version would be a W.W. 2 thing for like the Sigfried Line fortifications  

[GTX]

Hi folks,

Found some more info (including pics) on the Panther Anti-Tank/Anti-Helicopter vehicle shown above.  As mentioned it was a project of the (then) West German Army during the late '80s/early'90s.  It was designed for anti-tank and anti-helicopter warfare roles.  The then Wegmann was selected in 1987 as the winner (this was apparently quite a surprise).  The weapons/sensors were mounted on a raisable platform that could reach a height of 12m and was designed to be fitted to armoured vehicles with a standard MTB sized turret ring.  The turret was designed to hold 2 men whilst the raised platform was unarmed.  There seems to have been some variance in exact weapons carried - some refer to TRIGAT whilst others mention HOT3 and Stinger.

This picture shows multiple missiles (other pics only show 3 - 4):


This picture shows the vehicle with the weapons/sensor platform stowed:



More inspiration for some armour what-ifs!

Regards,

Greg

PS.  I found this info in an old copy of Military Technology - I wish I had the time to truely cross reference all the mags/books in my library.

[NARSES2]

That Preying Mantis like Panzer reminds me of the British Universal Carrier that was built with a similar rig fitted with mg's to fire over walls, hedges etc. Got some photos plus conversion notes in an old Airfic Mag (circa 70's) somewhere.

Also the DUCKW's that were fitted with London Fire Brigade extending ladders for the US Rangers to use when they assaulted Pont de Hoc at Normandy.

Case of what "goes around comes around" I suppose, "what goes up comes down" ?

Chris

[GTX]

Hi folks,

Here is another real world piece of inspiration for those armour what-if - the TOS-1 Buratino






I know there is a 1/72 kit of this monster available.

Regards,

Greg

[General Zod]

Greg

That Buratino looks like it should be fighting Godzilla  I think someone over at Armorama built a 1/35 version

Chad

[Mike Wren]

on the supject of Leopards & big rockets there was a proposal for a Leopard-mounted system very similar to the T-72 one mentioned, with four larger tubes mounted on a retracting launcher, there's info on this & some other proposals suitable for what ifs in the trilogy of books published by Barbarossa on the Leopard 1

 

[jamakni]

Dont like rifled tank guns, for some reason they cant take APDS or HEAT, not flexible.  Would seem as though in cases when rifleing is required, would want to rifle the shell instead of the gun, at least for tank/anti tank guns.

Is there still a role for the tank destroyer with a gun?  When describing the Soviet army Viktor Suvorov saud that towed guns were used b/c they were cheaper and could be used to set up a defense.  missiles are more flexible, and can be set up on cranes like the German tank destroyers.  USU tank destroyer guns are smaller than tank guns, and would be unable to take on tanks.  Even with the same calaber one would need armor and you would wind up with a tank.  would seem as though for light armored anti tank vehicles (tank destroyers) missiles would be the way to go

[NARSES2]

Dont like rifled tank guns, for some reason they cant take APDS or HEAT, not flexible.  Would seem as though in cases when rifleing is required, would want to rifle the shell instead of the gun, at least for tank/anti tank guns.

Well they definately fire APDS (if you mean armour peircing discarding sabot ?) because British guns have used it since the back end of WWII. The French designed a round which had a ball-bearing mounted base that when fired from a rifled gun meant that the main body of the shell did not spin - forget if that's HEAT or AP Squash Head

As for a rifled shell you would still need something for that "rifling" to engage with in the barrel ?

Chris

[GTX]

Hi folks,

Another old image to wet your appetites re Armour what-ifs:  the G6 SPAAG proposal using a South African G-6 chassis mounting a British Marksmen twin 35mm (?) SPAAG turret:



Regards,

Greg