potential RAF. 'what-if types ...

[TsrJoe]

...heres some more from the files of the PRO./National Archives at Kew, museum records and verified published sources...

please note those listed below are not in any particular order or time frame but were all serious evaluations for which there is supporting references...

Grumman Tiger, Royal Navy
Grumman Tracer, Royal Navy (HMS. Eagle)
Grumman Hawkeye, Royal Navy (HMS. Q.E.)
Vought Crusader, Royal Navy (Spey Engined)
NA. RA.5C Vigilantie, Royal Navy (HMS. Q.E.)
MDD. F.4B/J Phantom, Royal Navy (HMS. Q.E.)
MDD./BAC. F.4HL, Royal Navy ('big wing')
Bell HSS.1, Royal Navy
GD. F.111B 'Swallow', Royal Navy
Boeing V.22 Osprey, Royal Navy
Boeing JSF. 'F.32 Budgie', Royal Navy
Sikorsky Seahawk, Royal Navy (frigates, etc)

Hawker P.1081 'Hawk' (variant)
Hawker P.1121 'Hurricane' (variant)
Hawker P.1117 'Naval Hunter'
English Electric 'Sea Canberra', Royal Navy
English Electric 'Sea Lightning' (F.6 & VG. T.5)
Supermarine 'Sea Swift' (F.3 variant)
Eurofighter 'Sea Typhoon', Royal Navy
Miles 'Sea Student' (T.1 variant

Dassault Mirage III, RAF. (Spey engined)
Dassault Mirage IIIV, RAF.
Dassault Mirage IV, RAF. (Spey Engined)
Breguet Atlantique, RAF.
Sud Super Frelon, Joint Services
BAC. Jaguar M, Royal Navy
Dassault Alpha Jet, RAF.
Dassault Rafale M (Royal Navy)

Republic F.105 Thunderchief, RAF.
Hughes 269, AAC.
Brantley B.2, AAC.
Bell D.188 VTO. RAF.
MDD./BAe. AV.16, RAF./RN.
Convair B.58 Hustler, RAF.
NA. A.3J Vigilantie, RAF.
Lockheed F.104 Starfighter, RAF.
Lockheed U.2 'Angel', RAF.
Grumman F.14B Tomcat, RAF. (1976)
Douglas B.66 Destroyer, RAF.
MDD. F.4VS Phantom, RAF. ('swing wing')
MDD. F.15 Eagle, RAF. (1976)
GD. F.111K/(M) 'Swallow', RAF.
Convair B.36 Peacemaker, RAF.
Lockheed C.5 Galaxy, RAF.
Lockheed P.3 Orion, RAF.
Boeing KC.135 Stratotanker, RAF.
Sikorsky CH.57 Mojave, RAF.
Sikorsky CH.53 Stallion, Joint Services
Sikorsky Blackhawk, Joint Services
Northrop F.18L Hornet, RAF.
GD. F.16A Falcon, RAF.
MDD. JSF. RAF.
Bell AH.1W Cobra, AAC.
Bell JetRanger, RAF. (DHFS.)

Dornier Do.27, AAC.
Dornier Do.31 Lifter, RAF.
Eurocopter Tiger, AAC.
Eurocopter NH.90, RAF./AAC.
Eurocopter Dauphin, RAF. (DHFS.)
Eurocopter BK.117, RAF. (DHFS.)
Beriev A.40 Mermaid, RAF.
Pilatus PC.9, RAF.


a big thanks to all who have found other non UK. designs looked at by the MoD. and HM. forces to add to our listing ...happy modelling, cheers, joe


... obviously theres lots more...ill add further types to the forum as i come across them in the files, hoping this is of some use, cheers, joe  

ps. i have left out ones which altho commonly discussed and even modelled i have seen no written evidence for, likewise i have omitted types speculated to have been put forward too, thus hopefully giving us a framework from which to spring from ?  likewise i have as yetnot included the literally dozens of seroius proposals put forward by UK. firms throughout the 'post war' period !

pps. oh and somat different again... back in the late 40's in recognition of the soviets ordering evaluation numbers Meteor and Vampire airframes (not delivered!), the UK. did temativly pursue the idea of ordering representative soviet jet aircraft in return..just imagine a Mig 9, Yak 15, etc in UK. colours...

[AeroplaneDriver]

Great list Joe!!

Several of these have been on my "to do" list for some time, this list just gives more motivation!

A few of these are (or still may be) more than "what ifs".  The Hawkeye and Osprey are still in the running for the MASC platform forthe carriers, and the PC-9 is in the running for the Tucano replcement (though this may be the Raytheon T-6II, cant remember).  Also the Alpha Jet is currently operated by the Defence Evaluation & Research Agency (DERA).  They bought 12 a few years ago for chase plane and test duties, but I think 5 are for spares.  Unfortunately I think they are still in Luftwaffe colors with RAF serials and roundels.  It might be nice to see one in real RAF/UK colors.

[elmayerle]

Hmm, that definitely tempts me to do a F-18L in RAF markings.  I've got an early F-18 kit that I could use as a basis.

[AeroplaneDriver]

This may be drifting off topic a bit, but I have another of those great little Revell Hunters on the way from the ebay fairy and I'm wondering what it would take to turn an F.6 into either a P.1083 or P1090?  Lee..?

to drag myself back on topic I'll remind myself that if the rumor mill is to believed both the Rafale and Sea Typoon are still firmly in the "might happen" column.

[elmayerle]

As I remember, the P.1083 was primarily a new wing, perhaps a bit more pointed nose, and an afterburning engine.  Not too difficult.

[elmayerle]

A question:  Is that F-14B Tomcat a re-engined one or was the original TF30 part of the proposal?

[Radish]

Oooohhhh  

[Zen]

Serious evaluations with supporting references....?

DH115 'Super Vampire' was the 'winner' of the RNs search for a carrier fighter with radar in 1952, only after this declaration did DH come back to them and say they did'nt have the design staff to turn it into reality. They offered a version of the DH110 instead, which became the Sea Vixen.

SR.177 was real too some 20 prototype/development machines where on order upto 1957.

F155T's winner was the Fairey Delta III, a further spec F155D was to be writen around the design, but this and work on a prototype never came to any thing before '57 and the axe fell.

The P1154 was in the process of being built for a prototype with production expected to meet the RAFs requirements.

All these are real designs, realy and seriously evaluated and all where the winners of the tendering processes, each 'nearly' made it.
So why are they not mentioned by you Tsrjoe?
Yet you mention the P1116 and P1121?

Or should we ask why are these not on record at Kew?

[AeroplaneDriver]

Which Hunter kit, Nick?  The Revell 72nd one is already an F6 - unless you mean the 144th one which is an FGA9...

Maintrack did a conversion for the Airfix Hunter to do it as a 1083, although his exhaust was crap and the wings had issues with the wheel well placement.

You can butcher a PM Go 229 for the wings, they just need a little reshaping.  Don't see why they can't fit onto a Revell Hunter F6...

I keep meaning to photocopy the drawings from the barrie Hygate book to do just that.

P.1090 needs a much bigger fuselage at the back for the Gyron engine.  I'll pass on that one.

Sorry Lee, what I meant was what would it take to convert an F.6 to a P.1083.  The kit I would use would be the 1/72 Revell.  

From the few line drawings I've seen the 1083 looks fairly straightforward as you say, so I'll probably shoot for that one if I do one.  Not sure if I'm up to modifying the fuselage!!

Thanks for the info.

[rallymodeller]

A question:  Is that F-14B Tomcat a re-engined one or was the original TF30 part of the proposal?

The point of the F-14B was to get away from the troublesome TF30 by reengining with a more reliable engine. It was to use the F401 (a member of the F100 family). The A+ and D models used the F110 version of the DFE (according to my sources the core of an F101 with scaled-up F404 parts tossed in).

[elmayerle]

Well, the A+ was later redesignated "B" and I seem to remember seeing an avionics upgrade of the A being designated as the "C".  I asked because the F401 engine had already been cancelled by 1976, the date of the proposal Joe mentioned and I wondered about the engine fit.  I can remember the F401 cancellation quite well, it got me my first layoff.  Mind you, the criminal part was that the congresscritter who led the charge to cancel the F401 with the cry that "The TF30 is good enouhg" later criticized the Navy for "buying a Turkey, not a Tomcat" when problems with the TF30 caused quite an array of difficulties; naturally, he never admitted his part in causing the situation.  And this idiot went on to become SecDef.  That told me all I needed to know about the quality of the administration he served.

Bitter?  What makes you think I am?

[Iranian F-14A]

Cheney and Rumsfeld were good for such nosense.Still are for that matter.As it is though,I always assumed the F-14C was the model that was targeted for the Marines.I did a nice profile of one in VMFA-321 Hell's Angels markings,looks great.Now,and this is the first time I've thought of this,but would a Spey Turbofan fit in an F-14? I'm thinking that the RAF/RN,had they bought them,put these engines into them like they did the Phantoms,so as to say it wasn't totally American.Oh,and added Skyflash in place of the Sparrows.

[elmayerle]

Actually, the SecDef I was referring to wasn't Cheney, it was Les Aspin, formerly a member of the House of Representatives from Wisconsin.  Yes, the TF41 would be a good fit for the F-14.  I've been scheming that the RAF & FAA would buy a certain number of stock F-14A's while going into development program for a Spey301 (afterburning TF41) - powered version as the definitive one.  If the Aeronavale was to also buy the F-14, I can see the proposed engine being a joint RR/Allison/SNECMA venture building on the experimental work RR/Allison had already done on afterburning TF41 versions (there's a 1967 article in AvWeek) and SNECMA's experience with making a decent supersonic fighter engine out of the TF30.  *smile* I envision the flight test aircraft as having rather colorful joint markings.

[Iranian F-14A]

Ah,Aspin,the one I didn't know about.Well,I persoanlly have a strong dislike towards Cheney after he ordered all the tooling and die for the F-14 and its spares destroyed after he selected the Super Hornet,not to mention he cancelled the A-6F Intruder II,Anyway though..,Sounds good,now would the Aeronavale aircraft be compatable with the R.550 Magic and Super 530 missiles? I could see the Magic being carried,not so sure on the Super 530.Great replacement for the Crusaders though.

[Archibald]

Sorry but don't forget that Foch and Clemenceau were really small carriers (roughly the Essex class Ie 250m long, 32000 tons).
But I like the idea of a French Tomcat. The M53 engine would be great (9700kgp in its P-2 version). Super 530 were equivalent to the Sparrow, Magic 1&2 , to the Sidewinder. Of course no equivalent to the Phoenix!!!
It would be nice to slaughter a Mirage 2000C and put it exhaust, and missiles to a Tomcat. Of course, you need a second exhaust, but Heller will send you that for free. Just send them a letter with the "number" of the exhaust.