Aircraft Carriers

[GTX]

Australia won't be (though I'm sure the media will call the 2 Canberra class LHDs Carriers), though I understand there is a slim possibility of some F-35Bs being acquired.

Regards,

Greg

[Maverick]

Given the resources, manpower, etc, I'm baffled as to why Australia would even consider -35Bs.  That would cut down the number of CTOL A's in the stash for starters which wouldn't make the RAAF too impressed I'd suggest and the logistics of -35B ops off the LHDs would surely outweigh the advantages of having them?

Unless it's a case of the seaweed-suckers keeping up with the Jones' which wouldn't surprise me in the least regarding the whole -35 deal.

[Hobbes]

I don't see the Netherlands acquiring a carrier. We've done nothing but downsize the armed forces for 15 years now, the only positive note for the Navy was getting two LHDs.  

[B777LR]

My thoughts of what countries will  have carriers by 2020 (not including current carrier operators):
China
Argentina
Iran?
Ukraine
Turkey (assault carrier with F-35B)
Australian (Wasp class assault carrier with F-35B)
Japan (a proper carrier)
Taiwan (assault carrier with F-35B)
South Korea (assault carrier with F-35B)

[Spey_Phantom]

Belgium also had plans for a Belgian/luxemburg LHD back in 2000, but due to budgetcutts the program was scrapped  
it would have been cool to see some Belgian AV-8B+ and F-35B's  B)  

[dy031101]

Taiwan (assault carrier with F-35B)

If other interested parties in and around South China Sea become even more hostile towards ROC or ROC finds herself responsible for long range convoy escort as well, then it's possible.

[royabulgaf]

My understanding is that there is quite a bit of popular interest in the PRC acquiring aircraft carriers, but the PLA Navy currently feels it has better things to do with the fundings it gets and can expect.  

Kim M

[Thorvic]

Given the resources, manpower, etc, I'm baffled as to why Australia would even consider -35Bs.  That would cut down the number of CTOL A's in the stash for starters which wouldn't make the RAAF too impressed I'd suggest and the logistics of -35B ops off the LHDs would surely outweigh the advantages of having them?

Unless it's a case of the seaweed-suckers keeping up with the Jones' which wouldn't surprise me in the least regarding the whole -35 deal.

Odd Maverick, i though you would have known the reason, East Timor.

The UN operation there highlighted that its bleedin hard providing Air Support when the nearest friendly air base is hundreds of miles away. F-35B's would be able to operate in theatre to provide umbrella or close airsupport to the troops on the ground, unlike the Hornets and F-35A's stuck in Darwin and relying on tanker support.

The growing nature of conflict to be more bush wars, peacekeeping along with disater support has lead to the forces being requiped for more mobile opertions and the ability to defend and support these mobile forces. Couple that with the chance that some countries may not allow use of thier facilities or even overflights makes it very much harder for Airforces to gaurantee that they can support and protect their Naval or Land forcies.

The difficulties in getting overflight permission through Europe and the Middle East nearlly resulted in the RAF being stranded in Cyprus for the 2nd Gulf War, and Turkeys sudden change of mind in allowing the Allies to use its land really screwed up the battle plans and the war to some extent. Thats why the RN's CVF's were authorised soon afterwards by the UK as traditional friendly states could no longer be counted upon.  

[GTX]

Speaking of Carriers, I read yesterday that Australia was tentatively offered the HMS Hermes in the late 1960's whilst it was still configured as a CTOL carrier.  If supplied with it's air wing this could have resulted in RAN FAA Sea Vixens and Buccaneers.

Regards,

Greg

[Archibald]

Don't know if this off topic or not, but I'm currently reflexioning about China possible use of Varyag.
I know that the ship is not in a very good shape, but let's say that China consider it as an interim / training ship.

So circa 2006 China decide to press the Varyag into service despite its big weaknesses.

They decide to borrow a powerplant from one of their frigates and graft it into the hull.
I know there won't be enough power for a 67 000 tons ship, but this is only a training ship.
Its speed is only 18 kt, but that's enough for the role. Same thing for ASM and self defence, very basic hardware.

So what air group would fit in such ship ?

First role would be a huge assault carrier, in a way similar to Hermes after 1970, or more specialised Iwo Jima or Jeanne D'arc LPHs.
Obvious chopper would be the Mi-8 or Mi-17, a bunch of them could be carried (60 or so). This chopper is rugged enough to be use at sea and carry commandos.

Can we add some aircrafts to the choppers ? K-8 or boosted J-10 ?

[dy031101]

Maybe just a training ship...... still, why not just taking a version of the steam turbine scheme from the 051 class family of destroyers?

I think the ship can, just like many rumours have indicated, get rid of the AShM VLS and use the space for either extra perishable supplies or extra aircraft......

For a fixed-wing training airgroup, if you really wanna start from a trainer, navalized K-8 might be fine, but if you want something derived from a combat aircraft, I say let's go for a "localized" version of Su-33 and skip J-10......

[Archibald]

Maybe just a training ship...... still, why not just taking a version of the steam turbine scheme from the 051 class family of destroyers?

Very well, I know nothing about chinese destroyers, and even less on their powerplants. So I suppose its good enough.  

I had forgotten that every Soviet carrier had a load of antiship missiles to supplement its air group   .  
You're right, let's get ride of those missiles and use space for more interesting stuff, say fuel, SAM, or more aircrafts.

If its a training ship only, why not using HN-5 MANPADS to defend it ? Put some guy with them on the deck, and fire at the attackers!

And why not an AEW variant of the big Mi-8 ? there's lot of space in this chopper and its has good range and stability.

K-8 would be good, maybe for attack (single seat variant?   )

Su-33 sounds more logical than naval J-10. But only in very small numbers...

I would prefer a chopper / K-8 air group  just not to affraid too much Japan, Taiwan and South Korea while having some experience in naval operations.

In fact it depend about the use of the carrier and what old Varyag can withstand.

I mean we can define three levels

- Multirole K-8 (like the Hawk 100/200) for training, attack, and eventually limited A2A

- Naval FC-1 or J-10. In the case of a use against Taiwan, but this would panick Japan and South Korea. Less viable.

- Su-33
Most difficult, not sure the Varyag can withstand such machine in the shape we defined. Maybe for future carrier ? Varyag would be used to test the machine only.

[dy031101]

If its a training ship only, why not using HN-5 MANPADS to defend it ? Put some guy with them on the deck, and fire at the attackers!

To train CIWS operators destined for major combatants?  

And why not an AEW variant of the big Mi-8 ? there's lot of space in this chopper and its has good range and stability.

For a more readily available solution, there is also Ka-31.  Of course, indigenous solution based on Z-8 would be exotic as well.

- Su-33
Most difficult, not sure the Varyag can withstand such machine in the shape we defined. Maybe for future carrier ? Varyag would be used to test the machine only.

Depend on the extent of the reconditioning...... if the flight deck is going to be strengthened for fixed-wing operations, what difference does it make?    

[GTX]

I know that the ship is not in a very good shape, but let's say that China consider it as an interim / training ship.

I thought the recent intell was that the PLAN was actually returning the Varyag to service!

For a more readily available, there is also Ka-31. Of course, indigenous solution based on Z-8 would be exotic as well.

I agree with the Ka-31 idea - after all the PLAN already operates the related Kamov Ka-28 from their Sovremenny class missile destroyers (see pic).  A combination of some Ka-27s, Ka-31s would be logical:

PLAN Ka-28:


Ka-31:


As for fixed wing aircraft, it was reported a year or so ago that China had agreed to buy nearly 50 Sukhoi Su-33s (Source)

Regards,

Greg

[roughneck06]

I recently read that the USN had plans to convert the USS Saipan to an angled deck configuration for training new avatiors.

If succesful- there would have been the Wright plus 8 Independance CVLs for conversion. Asume twin 3in AA vice 40mm mounts and update radar and electronics. Speculation on which nations might have picked up these CVLs and their air groups? ( I'd speculate A-4, s-2, Helos, perhaps the Northrup proposal for CVEs in the 1950s, later perhaps AV-8s ? )

Could Bogue, CasaBlanca CVES OPEATER LIKE WISE?