Aircraft Carriers

[GTX]

Folks,

I picked up these two images in a briefing on the new Canberra class LHDs the RAN is acquiring - they give a good indication of the size of the new ships in comparison to the old HMAS Melbourne (drawing) and current Kanimbla class LPAs (smallest picture):




As you can see, these new ships will be the largest ever operated by the RAN.

Whjich gets me back to an idea I proposed a while back: What if some navies wanted a new light carrier but didn't necessarily want to use VTOL type aircraft - they still wanted conventional fixed wing aircraft and therefore something like this was modified with an angled deck and maybe catapult or ski-jump (for STOBAR ops)?

Regards,

Greg

[dy031101]

Would ships that were able to operate F/A-18C/D be able to operate F/A-18E/F?

Although I'm not onto something in particular, I'm wondering if Britain's upgraded armoured carriers and France's Clemenceau class carriers can carry something that could shoot at hostile planes from afar...... like Brazilian F/A-18F packed with Meteors...... is it possible or would it still be just too heavy such that it'd be more practical to imagine a F/A-18C/D with radar upgrade to support Meteor?

[GTX]

What if the Graf Zeppelin somehow survived the war (either in German, Russian hands or otherwise) and was updated with an angled deck:



Please note this is my first attempt at a ship drawing so is pretty crude.

Regards,

Greg

[Joe C-P]

I have the Revell Graf Zeppelin, and will probably someday do it in Soviet service, with a small angled deck.

[cthulhu77]

I have the Revell Graf Zeppelin, and will probably someday do it in Soviet service, with a small angled deck.

Brag brag brag

[anthonyp]

I've got a GZ as well, and have been trying to figure out how to do an angled deck on it, probably in German NATO markings of some sort.

[Joe C-P]

I have the Revell Graf Zeppelin, and will probably someday do it in Soviet service, with a small angled deck.

Brag brag brag

Ia Ia! You ever scratchbuilt 1/700 planes and helos? My eyes ain't what they used to be.  I swore off carriers for a few months after doing three of them, causing my orbs to fall out and roll around on the hobby table. 

[Sauragnmon]

Hey Joe, if you want to skip the whole scratch-building the aircraft part, Pit-Road/Skywave produces a rather comprehensive set of very nicely detailed injection 1/700 Soviet aircraft - more than just the ones you see on Kuznetsov too, they have MiG-21's and such in the set.  You might want to look into that to save yourself the sanity.  I've got two of their aircraft sets - Luftwaffe 1 and IJN Aircraft 3 - the parts are Real nice, and the detail's pretty damn nice too.

Greg - the Graf Zep concept you did isn't too shabby at all, man.  Interesting how you decided to sweep the angle back on the deck though.  No Cat on the side deck?  Still inspires thoughts though.

As to how to whifbash the GZ, you'd probably do well to keep the majority of the original deck intact and then work by building off of that with your extension decks.  It would save you a lot of the time - just score your lines, or mark it off, and start building the conversion into it right from the starting block.

[Joe C-P]

Hey Joe, if you want to skip the whole scratch-building the aircraft part, Pit-Road/Skywave produces a rather comprehensive set of very nicely detailed injection 1/700 Soviet aircraft - more than just the ones you see on Kuznetsov too, they have MiG-21's and such in the set.  You might want to look into that to save yourself the sanity.  I've got two of their aircraft sets - Luftwaffe 1 and IJN Aircraft 3 - the parts are Real nice, and the detail's pretty damn nice too.

Ah, yes, but I need their early post-war planes and helos - e.g. MiG-9, YaK-15, Mil-1 - for this project.

[Sauragnmon]

Just fiddling around in my head at work today, I came to a sadistically wicked thought - RATOBAR Carrier anybody?  Imagine if you will, an Su-33 ZELL model, with a massive rocket booster based off, say, the AS-6 missile, without guidance and payload, or a basic guidance module to get the aircraft up to a good altitude.  All the thrust you can get off the AS-6, I should imagine it would be a massive enough booster to get an Su-33 off the ramp and into the air.  You could carry a beefier payload for a launch like that.  From there, you can go about standard arrested landing on the deck when you return.

Thoughts?  Am I too insane?

[Archangel]

Just fiddling around in my head at work today, I came to a sadistically wicked thought - RATOBAR Carrier anybody?  Imagine if you will, an Su-33 ZELL model, with a massive rocket booster based off, say, the AS-6 missile, without guidance and payload, or a basic guidance module to get the aircraft up to a good altitude.  All the thrust you can get off the AS-6, I should imagine it would be a massive enough booster to get an Su-33 off the ramp and into the air.  You could carry a beefier payload for a launch like that.  From there, you can go about standard arrested landing on the deck when you return.

Thoughts?  Am I too insane?

I don't think so. The Russians would do it if it had the right set up.

[dy031101]

Just fiddling around in my head at work today, I came to a sadistically wicked thought - RATOBAR Carrier anybody?  Imagine if you will, an Su-33 ZELL model, with a massive rocket booster based off, say, the AS-6 missile, without guidance and payload, or a basic guidance module to get the aircraft up to a good altitude.  All the thrust you can get off the AS-6, I should imagine it would be a massive enough booster to get an Su-33 off the ramp and into the air.  You could carry a beefier payload for a launch like that.  From there, you can go about standard arrested landing on the deck when you return.

I couldn't help thinking of the takeoff area like a missile launcher battery......

Say, in an arrangement like that of a Kiev class, with the fighters launching off rails at the bow (for example, where the cruise missile launchers are located on the Kiev class cruisers) and landing on the angled flight deck......?

[Sauragnmon]

Dy, great minds think alike - I was thinking an expanded-back Kiev might work, basically with a little more for hangar space.  As to setup, I was thinking of having the blast deflectors set up so they flip up and back, opening the blast pit, instead of lifting at the forward edge, the hydraulics pull down at an under-deck section, lifting the deflector up at the back angle, so the blast pit isn't open when not in use.  As to getting them on the launcher, use the rails for loading the Bazalt launchers?  I guess I'll have to get another Kiev to bash like this for the RATOBAR configuration.  It'd look pretty sweet though.

[pyro-manic]

Interesting thought. The only problem is that it'd be very expensive to operate - you have to have a large supply of boosters on-board, which are going to be very costly themselves (both to build and maintain), and require a large volume inside the hull to store - taking away from fuel/magazine/hangar space.

Perhaps a smaller booster to launch a light fighter, mounted on a container ship or auxiliary escort carrier? Similar to what was done with Hurricats, for convoy defence?

[Weaver]

They never seem to seriously study a Catapult Take-Off, Vertical Landing carrier  -why not?

The principle problem of the Harrier is Max Take Off Weight, which ski-jumps help with, but a catapult would help with even more. On the other hand, vertical landing is WAY safer than arrested, and Harriers can usually manage this without problems (unless conditions are very hot). Vertical landings can also take place simultaneously, thus speeding up the deck ops cycle, in proportion to how much clean flat deck edge is available: a catapult preserves flat deck, whereas a ski-jump eats some of it.

Taking this a bit further, one concept I've toyed with for a while is a double-sided CATOVL carrier. The "island" is on the centre line of the hull, as far forwards as possible, and there's another tiny island on the centreline right aft, with a FLYCO station to die for  . A non-nuclear version would need electric transmission, so that the gas turbo-generators could be located under the islands. On either side is an overhanging length of deck (which can be really wide because it's balanced port and starboard) with a catapult at the front and off-set deck-edge elevators near mid-ships. The hanger is short and wide and lives amidships.

This ship could launch aircraft very quickly with two cats, and could recover many aircraft simltaneously, because they could recover all along the deck on both sides.