Aircraft Carriers

[Sauragnmon]

Brazil signed on for PAK FA I heard, so perhaps we're looking in the wrong direction - they could always contract the Russians to build a new hull at Nikolayev for a carrier like the Admiral Gorshkov.

[Just call me Ray]

Well, the Sao Paulo will be seaworthy for a few years to come, so I wouldn't discount a sale of the Kuznetzov to them.

For that matter, I remember someone, whether it was Brazil or Argentina, being interested in Varyag before it was sold to China.

Also, just out of curiosity, why did they choose Foch instead of Clemenceau? Better condition?

[Joe C-P]

Foch was in better condition than Clemenceau.

Given India's ongoing troubles with Russia and their repeated additional charges for the Gorshkov, I don't think anyone should consider them as a source for a carrier right now.

JoeP

[pyro-manic]

If the Gorshkov deal falls through, would the Indians just wait until their indigenous carrier programme is ready (which would mean another SLEP for Viraat), or would they look elsewhere (ie Invincible, CVF etc) for an interim replacement?

[dy031101]

Given India's ongoing troubles with Russia and their repeated additional charges for the Gorshkov, I don't think anyone should consider them as a source for a carrier right now.

One is (at least I kind of am) certainly tempted to feel this way, too.  I neglected to make clear that my mentioning the Kuznetsov is merely meant as an example...... (like GTX said, if the Su-33 can fly from the ship, anything else properly navalized is a goer.)

There are of course options available from European firms even if the US should refuse to provide catapults or the F-35B.

Isn't the Indian IAC project a collaborative design, too?  The seemingly newest configuration looks impressive:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/AeroIndia2009/shiv/p2120014.jpg.html

Maybe a design based on it would be a good future replacement for the São Paulo?

[Joe C-P]

Now _there's_ a whiffy idea - India producing CVLs for other countries. 

[dy031101]

Now _there's_ a whiffy idea - India producing CVLs for other countries. 

I thought it's a collaborative project with some European firm...... maybe that European firm can build an enlarged version (unless the current size is good enough for the Rafale to go SATOBAR) suitable for Rafale M operations......

[Spey_Phantom]

as i was watching a documentary last night, i suddenly discovered an alternative fo the JSF and STOVL aircraft for carriers and LHD's.

ESTOL (Extreme Short Take Off and Landing)

the test was conducted with an X-31 on a simulator, but said that soon test would be done with the actual aircraft on a marked runway.
and i was thinking, as the only aircraft to operate like this would either be the OV-10 or X-31, wouldnt it be a good idea if the Royal Navy concidered developing an ESTOL Fighter that could be used of the CVF and older Inviscible-class ships.

another alternative for the Royal Navy is to build its CVF's as STOBAR carriers and operate slightly ruggedised typhoons in the same configuration as the MIG-29K. since there were options to convert them to conventional carriers, why not STOBAR, thats cheaper to operate since it doesnt have steam catapults, although arrestor cables would be required 

[Just call me Ray]

Now _there's_ a whiffy idea - India producing CVLs for other countries. 

More like CVs - the Vikrant will be a pretty good sized carrier with deck space similar to the Sao Paulo, at least.

Though, I guess to an American CVN they'll be on the light side

[Sauragnmon]

You know, I always thought the optimal design for a carrier was a combination of STOBAR and CATOBAR for large tactical flexibility - we have the typical standard angled/forward deck design, put the skijump down the nose for STOBAR which allows us to fly the CAP on the cheap and have low maintenance costs, but on the side ramp, we install a couple of catapults, which allow for things like turbopropped AEW birds and for full-weight strike packages on your fighters - one of the catches of STOBAR is that you can't fly your aircraft at full takeoff weight. 

To that end, I have the remains of my 720 scale Kuznetsov, and if I can ever devise a choice of carrier in 700 scale that won't break my budget just thinking about it, I plan on setting up the design.  Eventually.

[GTX]

Foch was in better condition than Clemenceau.

Given India's ongoing troubles with Russia and their repeated additional charges for the Gorshkov, I don't think anyone should consider them as a source for a carrier right now.

JoeP

Speaking of which, have a read of this - if I were the Indians, I would be seriously considering cancelling the deal:

Indian Navy Stunned By Latest Russian Demand For Gorschkov
   
(Source: Forecast International; issued February 20, 2009)

   NEW DELHI --- The Indian Navy has been stunned by a Russian demand for an additional $700 million payment for the completion of the reconstruction of the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov. This brings the total demanded by the Russians to $2.9 billion, more than three times the originally-contracted price and a truly outrageous sum by any international standards.

In addition to this latest demand, the Russians have confirmed that the ship will not be completed until 2012, four years later than originally planned.

These latest demands come as a savage blow to the Indian delegation that was planning to negotiate over the original Russian demand for an additional $1.2 billion. The delegation was hoping to find some middle ground over this extra demand but the new imposition seems to end any such hopes. India has already paid $500 million as per terms of the initial contract.

The Russian delegation has said that regardless of the outcome of this round of negotiations, Sevmarsh wants an immediate payment of $190 million to continue work that's underway.

To put these sums and times into context, India could purchase a new carrier from the U.K. or France for $2.9 billion and probably get it delivered as quickly as the Russians are proposing.

The sum demanded by the Russians in unconscionably high for a ship that is already twenty years old, had been laid up for a decade and has suffered damage from at least two serious on-board fires. The rapidly escalating cost of rebuilding this ship can also be seen as an admission of the ship's bad condition after this long period of neglect.

A logical Indian response to this latest demand would be to tell the Russians that they can keep their hulk and either find a new supplier or accelerate the Indian indigenous aircraft carrier program.

While the progress on that program has been slow and the date of completion has now been pushed to 2014-15, directing $2.9 billion of additional funding into that effort could well serve to accelerate progress nicely. Alternatively, there are plenty of shipyards that could build a new carrier for the same sum.

What really matters now is whether the Indian Navy will be so scandalized by these latest demands that it will be politically possible for them to walk away from the Gorschkov.

Undoubtedly, doing so would be the sensible course of action. After all, there is an old naval adage that is very relevant: "Reconstruction Never Pays."

-ends-

The line "To put these sums and times into context, India could purchase a new carrier from the U.K. or France for $2.9 billion and probably get it delivered as quickly as the Russians are proposing." just begs for whiff options - Indian CVF anyone?

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

And speaking of the indigenous program:

Keel Laying of Indigenous Aircraft Carrier
   
(Source: India Press Information Bureau; issued Feb. 26, 2009)
   
   Keel laying of Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), one of the major milestones IN Indian shipbuilding, is scheduled on 28 Feb 09 by Hon'ble Raksha Mantri, shri A K Anthony.

The design and construction of Indigenous Aircraft Carrier was sanctioned by the Govt. of India in Jan 2003. This is the most prestigious project, which the Indian Navy has taken up in-house so far. The design and construction of this ship is a technical complexity whose dimensions far outstrip any such challenge faced hitherto by the Indian Naval Designers.

With this project, India has become the 4th nation to join the select club of 40,000-tonne plus aircraft carrier designers and builders. Indigenous Aircraft Carrier designed by Navy's Design Organisation and being built at Cochin Shipyard Limited would be capable of operating an aircraft mix of Russian MiG-29K, Ka31 and indigenous LCA.

The ship has a length of 260 meters and max breadth of 60 meters. The ship will be propelled by two shafts, each coupled to two LM2500 Gas Turbines developing a total power of 80 MW, sufficient to attain speeds in excess of 28 knots. The ship has an endurance of around 8,000 NM and complement of 1,600. The ship will have two takeoff runways and a landing strip with 3 arrester wires. It can carry a maximum of 30 aircraft with adequate hangarage capacity. The carrier is designed with a very high degree of automation for machinery operation, ship navigation and survivability.

The production of Indigenous Aircraft Carrier commenced in Nov 06 and large numbers of blocks have already been fabricated, which are under erection. Major equipment to be installed in lower decks of the ship has been ordered. The ship is being constructed using high strength steel developed in-house with the help of DRDO and SAIL.

Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR SAM) system with Multi-Function Radar (MFR) and Close In Weapon System (CIWS) is envisaged for the carrier. The ship will be equipped with the most modern C/D band early Air Warning Radar, V/UHF Tactical Air Navigational and Direction Finding systems. The carrier would also be having jamming capabilities over the expected Electro Magnetic (EM) environment, along with Carrier Control Approach Radars to aid air operations.

Integration of all weapon systems onboard the carrier would be through an indigenous Combat Management System (CMS).The ship's integration with Navy's Network Centric Operations would provide forced multiplication.

Design of this prestigious ship has been undertaken by the Directorate of Naval Design (DND) which has an experience of over 40 years in successfully designing 17 different classes of warships, to which around 90 ships have already been built within the country.

It is also pertinent to mention that DND is the only Govt. organisation in the world today undertaking indigenous design of warships. Delhi-class destroyers are the biggest warships built so far to indigenous design. These ships are operating successfully over last 10 years and have demonstrated their design superiority when INS Delhi withstood extremely adverse weather conditions and high sea states while encountering typhoons during the ship's passage in the South China Sea in 1995.

CSL was chosen for building Indigenous Aircraft Carrier based on its modern infrastructural facilities. Though this is the maiden venture for CSL in warship construction, the shipyard has been involved in commercial shipbuilding for the past three decades.

In order to optimize on build period of IAC, CSL has been provided with exceeding Rs 200 Crores to augment infrastructure in areas such as large cranes, workshops, heavy duty machinery etc.

The ship construction is planned in two phases. First phase covers work up to first launch in end 2010. Second phase would cover all balance work till delivery of the ship to the Navy in end 2014.

Assistance for propulsion system integration and aviation aspects have been taken from Fincantieri of Italy and NDB of Russia respectively.

-ends-

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

If the Gorshkov deal falls through, would the Indians just wait until their indigenous carrier programme is ready (which would mean another SLEP for Viraat), or would they look elsewhere (ie Invincible, CVF etc) for an interim replacement?

If I remember correctly, the Indians did look at the Invincible a few years back and decided against it.

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

as i was watching a documentary last night, i suddenly discovered an alternative fo the JSF and STOVL aircraft for carriers and LHD's.

ESTOL (Extreme Short Take Off and Landing)

That's kind of what I had in mind when I proposed Navalised Viggens (see here) - these would make use of their thrust reversers to reduce landing requirements.

Regards,

Greg

[Just call me Ray]

Hmmmm....

I know the Clemenceau is technically still available, getting that ready for service might be cheaper than the Gorshkov!