Aircraft Carriers

[GTX]

Re the "FAIRY LIGHT" concept, I think the preference to avoid Aluminium on warships might count against it.

Regards,

Greg

[PR19_Kit]

There's not a SIGN of aluminium in a Mabey Bridge! Having heaved umpteen of the floor and side panels into position on their test rig, my knees and ankles can affirm they are 100% steel (or maybe depleted unobtanium from the weight of the darn things!)

In Mabey's front office they have an amazing CGI display of a bridge unit building itself across a river, and I thought they had a link to it on their web site, but it's gone missing at the moment. Next time I'm down there I'll ask if they still have the file available.

Mabey have a huge contract with the US Army to hold stocks of combat ready bridge units, all stacked away in 40' ISO containers, in their yard outside plant. Rumour had it that the stash of containers was enough to re-bridge every river in Iraq at one stage.

[Thread drift par excellence here guys, great stuff!  ]

[rickshaw]

Re the "FAIRY LIGHT" concept, I think the preference to avoid Aluminium on warships might count against it.

Regards,

Greg

A lot of the prejudice against Aluminium is based more upon myth than reality, Greg.  Many ships have extensive Aluminium in their superstructures.   They'd turn turtle if it was all steel.

[Fulcrum]

Re the "FAIRY LIGHT" concept, I think the preference to avoid Aluminium on warships might count against it.

Regards,

Greg

A lot of the prejudice against Aluminium is based more upon myth than reality, Greg.  Many ships have extensive Aluminium in their superstructures.   They'd turn turtle if it was all steel.

Of which is a paradox of weight & damage control safety(especially if a Alumininum structure gets hit(like H.M.S. Sheffield), the noxious fumes from the fire would be toxic & not to menition putting alumininum on ships is like having cardboard A.P.C.'s, they melt easily).

Now.... let's get back on the main topic of this thread.... CARRIERS!!!

[McColm]

Has anyone used carbon fibre in building ships?

[icchan]

Has anyone used carbon fibre in building ships?

Not in any structural way.  It can be very brittle compared to metals, which means shock is a problem (like from explosives).  You can't simply weld in patches or replacement sections like you can steel or aluminum, either, and there are some issues with fire.  Apparently the resins vaporize at 300 degrees C, and spontaneously combust just above that.  One decent fire aboard ship and you get yourself a real problem, especially with all the kinds of nasty chemicals that are in the stuff (and therefore fumes/smoke).  Granted, there's a lot of that to begin with on a ship, but when you have all that already and then add in the very structural material itself, it can be a little too much.

The idea works for really small stuff where the brittleness isn't as much a factor since the thing is so light as to move the entire ship at once (low inertia is your friend), and where it'll be so light that it's got a very small water interface anyway.  And where's it's not, y'know, being shot at.  Look at your typical family boat collision; you can do a lot of damage to the stuff in a sudden impact.  Not so good for a warship.  And well, fire at sea = oh god do not want.

[McColm]

Thanks,
I'll stick to wood.

[anthonyp]

OK, time to move the "what to build out of" stuff to either the "Tips, Tools, and Techniques" or the "Everyday Chat" section since some of these really have no use in a discussion with regards to general Aircraft Carriers (or how to even build a model for that matter).  Too technical for general information about flattops.  Heck, you want to talk about bridges, start a thread in the "Hot Research Topics" section.  Go wild on Whiffing suspension bridges (like a Bering Sea span).  I'll go about separating the threads a little later.

This thread is about AIRCRAFT CARRIERS.  Get back to it, or I'll let the BOFH out (great webcomic).

[icchan]

So what would make a good helicopter/VTOL carrier?  I'm wanting to put something together in the range closer to the Hyuga-style DDH rather than an American LHD.  What sorts of things need to be considered?  Set your timeframe around 1975.

[jcf]

DDG 1000 is using carbon composite construction:
http://www.carbonfiberguru.com/2010/02/08/the-navys-carbon-fiber-composite-stealth-warship/

Visby is primarily composite:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visby_class_corvette

[dy031101]

So what would make a good helicopter/VTOL carrier?  I'm wanting to put something together in the range closer to the Hyuga-style DDH rather than an American LHD.  What sorts of things need to be considered?  Set your timeframe around 1975.

Like...... this?

[Thorvic]

So what would make a good helicopter/VTOL carrier?  I'm wanting to put something together in the range closer to the Hyuga-style DDH rather than an American LHD.  What sorts of things need to be considered?  Set your timeframe around 1975.

Well the prime candidate would be the Invincible class as this was being built at this time, and is readily available in kit form in both 1/700 and 1/350 scales.

The Sea Control Ship was being mooted as a USN VTOL escort carrier was under design and was eventually adapted and constructed in Spain as a Harrier Carrier with a huge turned up bows to form a Ski-jump, however this would have to be scraft built

The US Iwo Jima class LPH USS Guam was trialled in the Sea Control Ship roll and was used to prove the concept, and a modified version of this design was offered to the RAN as a Harrier carrier replacement for HMAS Melbourne. There is currently only a rare resin kit of the class from Pitroad which occasionally gets released, and Aurora actually did a 1/600 kit back in the 60's which is really tough to find. However it may be possible to utilise one of the Trumpeter/Pitroad Blue Ridge class command ships to a Iwo Jima style VTOL carrier as they share a common hull form (Pity they didnt convert the resin LPH to a plastic kit as they did with the Blue Ridge  ).

The other design from the period is the Italian Guiseppi Garribaldi class, which was under design at this time, (the Ship like the Spanish SCS didnt appear till about 84ish). This design too was offered to the RAN as a potential Melbourne replacement.

I should really point out at this stage that the Spanish Navy from 1970 had been using one of the Independence class light carriers USS Cabot as a VTOL Carrier Dedalo. Basically a WW2 light carrier built on a cruiser hull with part of the wooden flight deck replaced with steel to act as a landing area for Matador aircraft (Harrier/AV-8A). Dragon do the Independence class light Carriers, and one of the original pitroad issues even had an option for Dedalo.

Going off the Dedalo idea its always possible some the former US Essex class ships could have been refitted for STOVL configuration for other navies when they were no longer capable of operating the heavier USN aircraft. Unfortunately there are no kits available of the later modernised Essex class with the bulges, angled deck, hurricane bow and updated island, however Dragon did issue the less modified Boxer as an LPH so if you removed the planking detail on the flight deck and looked fitting a shaped plug the box in the open bows it could provide the basis for a capable STOVL carrier stopgap.

G

[icchan]

The Invincible could work.  I'm wondering what, besides eliminating the ski-jump, might be done to dedicate the thing to a helicopter transport.  Elevator differences, any changes in superstructure, that sort of thing.  I've got half an idea for an alternate Navy that took the idea of the AH-56 to heart and developed compound aircraft further, so you get some interesting navalized AHs with radar, an ASM or two (I recall some concepts for the Apache to do this)  and general ground-attack to support marine operations.

[Thorvic]

Well to convert the Invincible to a Helicopter carrier, then you could put a deck over the bows, replace the Ski-jump with a flat deck. The deck lifts are dictated by the size of the hanger and position of the gas turbine intakes.

The big question is will this be used as a through-deck guided missile cruiser as per the original role of Invincible and Hyuga (the japanese still call it a DDH despite being the same size & role as the Invincibles !) or an Helicopter Carrier (LPH) used for Assaults ?
If the later then look at HMS Ocean as she is an updated CVS class redesigned as an LPH, with a simpler propulsion, Island, together with basic senor & weapons fit. If an ASW cruiser then like Invincible & Hyuga there would be Gas Turbines, extensive radar and comms gear together with a full suite of weapons for self defence. If adapting an Invincible then it might be an idea to rejig the Superstructure and relocate the SeaDart system into it rather than blocking the flight deck.

G

[Weaver]

Or you could take the view that Sea Dart belongs on the escorts and re-fit the Invincible with two short-range gun and/or missile systems on the former Type-909 tracker positions. It's still a 30-knot "fleet" ship rather than a 20 knot "amphibious" one, just with more deck and internal space for strike aircraft.